Water 4 gas?

Maintenance/Repairs
61

Nice resume anyway. I think you’re incorrect again by stating an alternator is producing power when the wiring is disconnected. The alternator field windings must be energized by battery voltage provided through the alterantor light since alternators are “exciteable”. If the wiring is unplugged then the alternator is a dead metallic lump no matter what RPMS it’s turning.
It also does not take more than 10 amps to recharge a car battery; that all depends on a lot of factors. If you install a device that uses 10 amps that does not mean that device is using 10 amps of this alleged extra power production. The alternator is going to cover that by having to step up the ante so to speak.
Alter is the correct spelling, not altin.

Any comments on this?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html?page=4

62

In theory and practice, extracting hydrogen from water and igniting will work and create energy. However, and this is a huge HOWEVER, the volume of hydrogen that would be required to run your car, or even help run your car, would require a very large processor - too large to be carrying around on your car.

63

Wrong. It will not create energy, it will use energy, otherwise you have a perpetual motion machine.

The energy required to break water into oxygen and hydrogen will be greater than the energy you get when you recombine (burn) them.

64

Again you caught me not being exact… Yes, the battery is needed to start the power generation, but is not required to maintain it. Current only flows through a circuit if it is complete, a test meter would complete the circuit. (spelling was never my strong point.)

Car manufacturers are concerned with making money, if they are not required to make technological changes to improve fuel economy by either the retail market of government regulation, they simply have no motivation to spend the money on research.

The problem I have with researching devices that people claim have worked on one vehicle or another is that results will vary based on the vehicle even within the same make model and year manufactured. For example, let’s use the model car I have, a 2002 Ford ZX2 with an automatic transaxle, Ford produced at least 4 diffrend ECU’s for this one make, model, and year of car, Each with diffrent data tables and software to control parts within the same specifications. The ECU’s are also designed to “learn and adapt” as the vehicle is driven. This also effects performance.

This is why the EPA Milage labels for new cars is “estimated MPG”. For Instance the EPA estimated city milage for my car was 24 MPG, my average results from driving the car was 26MPG untill I began modifying the car.

The only way I know of to find something that will work for a specific vehicle is to experiment with that vehicle. Record keeping is also needed for the specific vehicle. For example I have tracked my car’s fuel usage from the date I purchased it untill now. I know from observation that when it is nearly time to change the oil, coolant or ATX fluid my gas milage drops.

65

Look, who are we going to believe? You, who as far as we know could be a seller of these things, or Popular Mechanics, who did a scientific study of the merits of these bulls*** products, and found they didn’t work. I’d trust PM before some unknown person online.

To see the study and results, go here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html

66

I once had the notion of just raising the relative humidity of the intake air to reduce knocking. This could be done with a pleated element in a box on the intake.

67

“All energy beyond what the regulator allows into the electrical system of the car is waisted (sic)”
Wrong! The regulator controls the field current, which determines how much energy the alternator extracts from the spinning pulley, belt etc. When the regulator reduces field current the alternator produces less mechanical drag (torque). Less power in, less power out.

“most altinators (sic) do not produce power before the engine is at or above 1,000 RPM”
Wrong again! One of the major advantages of alternators over generators is that alternators can produce more output at low speeds. Roughly half their rated output at idle speed (5-700 RPM).

68

You should read up on how an alternator works:

69

Uh, that Popular Mechanics study does NOT talk about hydrogen-oxygen injection. They do mention water injection, which I don’t think is what this other poster has installed and definitely is not what the Water4Gas guy sells. I wish PM would study this gizmo so we can get a bit of clarity; I’m hearing so many opinions here that my head is spinning.

I think we can all agree that (1) you can’t get more energy out of a system that you put into it and (2) it costs energy to split water into H2 and O2 gas.

The question is, how much “extra” energy currently goes to waste in an unmodified car? It was stated that there’s about 10 amps available for accessories like the stereo. If that current is sent to the electrolysis gadget then we should not see a reduction in gas mileage, no?

Then the question that remains is, what happens when the flammable gas mixture of 2H2 + O2 is added to the air intake? Will this cause the engine to “burn hotter”, causing the ECU to reduce use of fuel vapor, thus greater energy output per unit of fuel?

Tangentially, how difficult would it be to add regenerative braking to a car? I think we can all agree that this is “free energy” that could indeed be harnessed to split water, charge a battery, or power your pacemaker. I’m imagining four generators, one per wheel, that are mechanically engaged whenever you hit the brake pedal, their current routed to the electrolysis gadget.

70

wrong there is no “extra wasted energy”. No such animal! The alternator/battery puts out as much current as the load calls for, no more, no less. If you put an additional 10 amp load on the alternator, then that energy has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the gasoline, as the alternator is an extra drag on the engine!

Yes, regenerative braking will yield energy, most hybrid cars do that! it’s not free energy, it came from the gasoline used to accelerate the car initially.

71

Degzx2, you really need to take an automotive electrical class and learn how an alternator works. Everything you’ve stated about an alternator in operation is dead wrong.
You state an alternator does not have any output at an idle. I suggest you connect a VOM to your car and look at the volt reading while it is at a idle. You will not doubt see about 13.5-14 volts, and that is NOT battery voltage being shown. That is alt. output.

You state an alternator will produce with no battery in the circuit and only a test meter. The alternator is going to have to sense a 12 volt supply from somewhere to produce anything at all and if the battery is removed then where do you think this 12 volts is coming from.

You need to learn the affects the ECT, ACT, MAF, MAP sensors, etc. have on the inputs being provided to the ECM. Just to pick one, the ECM is going to get something different from an ACT sensor exposed to 30 degree air than it would if the sensor was exposed to 90 degree air.
Most cars will get better mileage in the summer.

The device tested by PM does not claim to be water injection. The claims made are that it molecularly separates water and ultrasonically produces “hydrogen bubbles” which are then fed into the engine.

Gasoline from water scams have been around almost a century. If there was even one iota of truth to any of it then it would have been done production wise decades ago.
The only thing that survives is the utter BS, naive people, and countless conspiracy rumors. According to many posts literally thousands of people who have designed things like this have wound up dead or missing or have been visited by goon squads from “THE GOVERNMENT” who proceeded to confiscate the proof after beating them up or leaving a stern “OR else” warning.
And for the last time, an alternator does not produce any “extra” electricity.

72

Good Lord! I thought I had too much free time, you people are friggin’ crazy! At least I had the dubious title of most popular question for a few days, that really stroked my ego, and speaking of egos, did Degzx2 ever figure out how to spell altERnater?

73

I understand quite well how an alternator and regulator work, you deqzx2, clearly do not. The regulator acts on the field coil to control the voltage of the alternator. The voltage is held constant and amperage changes in response to load. THERE IS NO EXTRA UNUSED CURRENT BEING GENERATED! The regulator is not “blocking” anything, it’s controlling the field coil’s input which in turn controls the alternators output by not generating any more current than is being consumed at any one time. When the current load goes up, so does the mechanical load the alternator places on the engine. TANSTAFL (look it up if you have to)

74

My memory is fuzzy on this but it seems like the earliest example of a “water for gas” scam was back around 1915-1918? in which some clown was claiming to have done this. Tests were always delayed with no verifiable example of it actually working being noted. It was also discovered that the gentleman who claimed this had been prosecuted for fraud several times previously. Imagine that.

Over the decades there have been thousands of scams (call them what they are) and not one single product has been shown to work during LEGITIMATE testing, nor has any car maker, gov. agency, or testing organization such as SAE ever given an approval of any of these items.

There are 2 or 3 minor exceptions. It seems that the EPA tested many of these miracle products and in a very few cases they did note a slight improvement in economy.
BUT, and there is always a caveat isn’t there. The economy increase was difficult to judge since the amount gained was so small; as in the neighborhood of .5 to 1%.
BUT, there is a huge downside to that figure. This comes at the expense of sending the emissions through the roof and according to the EPA, this could fall into the neighborhood of “tampering” with Fed. mandated emission controls.

The other downside is that since HCs, NOX, CO, etc. are going through the roof then how long does one think a .5 to 1% gain will be effective before all of that excess is going to start killing spark plugs, O2s, cats, EGR systems, etc., which will in turn wipe out that 1% maximum gain very easily.

These power adder and/or fuel saver scams are geared towards the large number of the general public who also buy into things like male enhancement products, weight loss pills, work at home programs, get rich in real estate, or the latest exercise gadget.
Personally, if I was smart enough to figure out a way to even miraculously obtain even a 5% fuel mileage increase from some widget the last thing in the world I’m going to do is sell it on the net, late night TV ads, or look for distributors.
The bidding will all be behind closed doors with car makers, gov. agencies, and let the top billions of dollars win.
Then again, it’s kind of hard to scam those people…

75

Can?t and won?t work.

Assuming your engine is in perfect tune, you get about 20%-to 37% the energy you put into it back as work, you lose about 7% to friction and the rest is lost in the cooling system and exhaust. Now assuming your alternator is 55% efficient, and let do the math.

Gasoline has 18,000 BTUs per pound.

So now we have 18,000 BTUs to play with, assuming we have a very efficient engine we start with 18,000 times your engine efficiency (18000 x .37) we now have 6660 BTUs to do all the work, this is drive the car turn the alternator etc.

Now, if we use ALL that power to drive the alternator and our alternator that is 55% efficient our 6660 now becomes 3663 BTU. (6660 X .55) So to break EVEN that 3663 BTU must produce 18,000 BTU of hydrogen, and to increase your fuel mileage it MUST make more.

I know they told you the alternator is wasting electricity, it isn?t, when you don?t need as much electricity your alternator doesn?t put it out and thus doesn?t use as much power from the engine. But there is NO way for 3663 BTUs to make 18000 BTU if it could you would be making more power then you use.

But I?m going to bet when people put this device on their car they did see an increase in fuel mileage and here?s why. Back in the 1970?s there were many devices, magnets, water injectors, etc that claimed to increase fuel mileage, and when tested every one failed, but people said they saw an increase in fuel mileage. They did some research and found that after a person put a device on their car, or thought a device had been put on their cars, that person changed their driving style for a while, they watched how they drove and that was responsible for the increase not the device. They knew this because they hadn?t installed a device they just told the people they did and show them a box under the hood of their car with wires and hoses coming out of it.

Oh just so you know this was big in the 1970?s too. And it didn?t work then and it doesn?t work now. If you really want to save fuel, make sure your tires are inflated, your car is in tune, and you air filters are clean.

My opinions are subject to change with new facts.

76

I have been doing some research on this the last few months,and found it is true that hydrogen will increase gas milage.I built a generator and installed it on my 79 chevy pick up ( with a wore out carb) I was getting 10 mpg, before, and went to 20 mpg.so far it is working great,However I installed it on a jeep with a conputer and it caused a problem with the crankshaft position sensorI have a friend that installed it on a ram pickup and did the same thing.So if anybody is thinkin about trying this I would sugest you get a lot of good information before you try it.If there is any experts on this matter I would appreciate any information as to what may have caused this.Thanks

77

Why are you telling us this? You’ve accomplished what thousands of engineers and billions of dollars could not.
It’s open season on the bidding and congratulations on the purchase of your new country!

78

I think thew water cleaned out some of the carbon buildup in your carb. was there a lot of black smoke coming out your tailpipe after you done this?