I've been on two differnt roads ( one muddy, one icy ) where ...standing still was dangerous.
Many years ago…we had a MAJOR Ice Storm. Cars all over the place. This one woman stopped because the road was blocked. A Trooper pulled in behind her and was also able stop. She got out of her car and was sitting in the troopers car. While they were sitting there…they saw her car just slide off the road into the ditch. No one was in the car…it just slid off the crowned road.
Black ice is notorious for a reason. I used to spend my winters in Toronto and not once expected one of those dry dreary bone-chilling winter days only to become victim of black ice.
I had a bud who was late to get to his wedding, as his car would not start. I was pushing speed and control in a mild snow, and hit a patch of black ice, rwd car of course. I spun 3 times staying on the 2 lane highway, and after regaining control, made it to the wedding on time. I was lucky there was no traffic in the oncoming lane because I was using both lanes for a bit.
My worst experience on ice was in the late 1980s. I was a CDL for Purolator Courier. Weather was 40 degrees F with a light drizzle. I was delivering to a mall in Salem Oregon. I was in the mall for about 30 minutes. When I returned to my Ford Econoline E-350 There was 1/4 inch and building of freezing rain! My next deliveries were downtown so I tried the main street. It was blocked by the idiots who think if they press the accelerator and their vehicle does not go they need to put it to the floor! While I was stopped on a normally crowned street it was so slick my van would slide to the curb. I was able to turn onto residential streets and eventually make my way home at 10 to 15 mph.
With a RWD anyway, one technique if you start to spin is to put the car in neutral, straighten the wheel, and look backwards. 90% of the time the car will stay on the road, just pointed the opposite direction. Then you can just turn around and keep going. A lot better than waiting for a tow in the ditch. Don’t know about FWD, never had to try either.
With a RWD anyway, one technique if you start to spin is to put the car in neutral, straighten the wheel, and look backwards.
On snow/ice want to turn the wheel in the opposite direction if you spin in rwd vehicle.
That’s great for when your rear wheels break loose a little, but when you are in an uncontroled spin out, that won’t work.
On snow/ice want to turn the wheel in the opposite direction if you spin in rwd vehicle.
That’s actually an instinctive move. Steering into a skid when the front wheels let go is counterintuitive.
Humm… Nine pages of comments about driving on snow and ice, and I don’t think I saw tire/snow chains mentioned once.
I go out as often as I can to drive in snow. I do it for fun and because I like to help others that are stuck. There are a huge number of different types of snow and ice conditions, and driving in each provides new challenges. And, while I will never claim to have experienced all the possible conditions, I have yet to find conditions where tire chains will not give you adequate traction to control your car. Note, I did NOT say they will always get you through the snow - deep snow can still stop you - but they can keep you from sliding on nearly any road.
Freezing rain has been mentioned a few times, and this probably is the slickest condition possible. And I’ve been in this situation on a hill where I could not stand still on the road. If I stepped from the gravel shoulder and tried to stand on the paved road, I would start to slid sideways down the hill, no matter how careful I was. Never the less, with tire chains on my rig, I was able to pull one or two other rigs (I can’t remember how many were at this particular location for sure) out of the ditch they had slid into. Granted, under these very worst conditions, you may need chains on all four wheels to drive safely, but here I agree with the OP - If you are driving in these conditions and you don’t have chains, it is driver error.
A set of tire chains can be bought for most cars for as little as $30, or up to around $60 for trucks with larger tires. This is about the cost of one tank of gas, so if there is even a tiny chance of snow or ice, there is no excuse not to have then in your vehicle. Of course, some cars say you can’t use chains on them because there is not enough clearance between the tire and other parts of the car. Having put chains on hundreds of different vehicles, I can this is usually just not true. IF you 1) tighten the chains really well, and 2) keep your speed under 30 MPH then there are very few cars where there will be a problem. Tightening them really well means: after you put them on you drive a hundred feet or so and tighten them once, then drive another short distance and tighten them a second time. Don’t depend on any elastic adjuster to take up the slack. If there is enough room to fit your fingers between the tire and other parts of the car, then tire chains should work. If you have less than this much clearance, then get winter tires that are narrower (and maybe one size smaller in diameter) than your normal tires. Now you can use tire chains! Again, this is part of being a responsible driver.
tire/snow chains mentioned once.
Because they’re NOT needed. The ONLY time you need chains is when you running on hilly/mountainous roads in deep snow. If you’re NOT then…you don’t need them. And in fact they give you LESS control if on dry road. People are NOT going to spend time putting chains on and off for the 1-2 hours a decade they MIGHT come in handy.
All-wheel-drive:
Don’t get me wrong, I love AWD and 4WD. I currently own four, and have owned six others in the past. I’ve had small ones - Subarus, and Suzuki Samuri - and larger ones - 3/4 Ton International Harvester, and a Ford 6000 Truck.
But is AWD safer than 2WD? I would have to say no. In the hands of an experienced and careful driver, it is just as safe as 2WD. And, it will get you through worse conditions. But safer? Let me ask others that drive AWD or 4WD vehicles this: would YOU be a less safe driver if you were driving a 2WD vehicle? Personally I don’t think I would be. I might drive slower or need to put chains on, but I’d be just as safe.
And then there are inexperienced and/or careless drivers. I firmly believe that for these drivers, AWD is less safe. It’s still more likely to get them where they are going, but this is not the same as safety as it is also more likely to get them in an accident. It’s too easy for drivers to get an AWD going. Inexperienced drivers may not even realize how bad the conditions are and end up going too fast to control the vehicle or stop in a timely manner. In a 2WD vehicle, I think the inexperienced driver is more likely to understand how slippery the road is. In the worst conditions they won’t even be able to get the car moving, which is almost always safer. Yes, stopping and control can be slightly better in an AWD, but it’s not a huge difference. And, better control likely just leads to the careless or inexperienced driver to go faster.
The biggest problem with AWD is that a lot of the people who own them don’t seem to understand that EVERYBODY has all wheel brakes. If a two wheel drive vehicle can’t stop, neither can a AWD vehicle.
Because they're NOT needed. The ONLY time you need chains is when you running on hilly/mountainous roads in deep snow.
Well, people here have told stories of stopped cars sliding off of crowned roads, not being able to stop in 100’ after coming around a bend at 30MPH, and a delivery truck starting down a hill at 5 MPH and ending up in the ditch.
Unless these drivers were doing these things for fun, in an area with no one else to hit (as I do), then by my reasoning they needed tire chains. Based on the limited facts given, it is likely that tire chains would have prevented problems in all of these situations.
I disagree with you on when tire chains are most important. I think they are most important for compact snow (compacted to a near-ice condition), when the temperature is near or above freezing. Traction here is much worse than in non-compacted deep snow. In both conditions you might not be able to get going without chains, but in deep snow you can stop faster because the snow slows you down. In my view, stopping is MUCH more important than going.
Need proof? You can find any number of videos like this one where cars, generally at low speed, pile up one after another on roads with minimal amounts of snow.
If these cars had had chains on, there probably would have been no crashes.
And please note, I agree that using chains on dry roads gives you less control. I never recommended that, and I don’t know anyone that does.
People will never take the time to chain up, I have used chains on the trucks at work and they make a huge difference on snow and ice.
Many people are not interested in avoiding crashes, they are only interested in making excuses why they crashed or blaming someone else for their preventable crash.
Chains are a pain in the butt,but they work very well,they still chain up the snow trucks around here when it gets icy,now they have these devices on school buses and such that are remotely operated that puts a section of chain in the contact patch of the tire,users say they are very effective(cant see the ladies and most men either,kneeling in the snow to put chains on a school bus) I think “Ice Road Truckers” has a lot of Hollywood mixed with the reality-Kevin
I think chains have a very limited use on normal road conditions. Yesterday drove back from Wisconsin 120 miles in snow. A couple inches, blowing, partial drifts, partial clear, partial plowed and salted so partial wet. I can’t imagine a set of chains lasting a hundred miles on these kinds of road surfaces at 40-50 mph. Never had a problem though with reduced speed and all season tires. Never saw one car or truck with chains. Now there are conditions where you have deeper snow and drifts for driving short distances like 5-10 miles to the hospital or whatever where I can see chains would be helpful.
A couple inches, blowing, partial drifts, partial clear, partial plowed and salted so partial wet. I can't imagine a set of chains lasting a hundred miles on these kinds of road surfaces at 40-50 mph.
I guess I should have been more clear. I’m definitely not recommending you install chains anytime there is snow on the road. Just that you carry a set in case you need them. I think it is very cheep insurance.
A friend and I once drove from Seattle to Prudhoe Bay, Alaska one winter just for fun. It was about 5000 miles round trip with probably 80% to 90% of the trip on snowy roads. I don’t think we used tire chains once, but we carried two sets with us.
If you have blowing snow (that is, snow on the ground that is being picked up by the wind), then you probably don’t need chains. If the snow is blowing across the ground, the temperature is probably cold enough that you will have decent traction without chains. To be as slippery as in the video, the temperature of the air or road probably has to be above 25 Deg F.
As far as how long chains last, real chains (vs. cable chains) can last hundreds of miles, even on nearly clear roads - if you keep the speed down to 30 mph. I’m not sure how they would last at 50 mph, and I sure wouldn’t recommend driving that fast with them on.
Well, people here have told stories of stopped cars sliding off of crowned roads, not being able to stop in 100' after coming around a bend at 30MPH, and a delivery truck starting down a hill at 5 MPH and ending up in the ditch.
Never said that chains won’t stop you better or get you moving better. I said they aren’t needed. I don’t have any problems stopping or moving in snow without chains. So why are the NEEDED.
I grew up and learned how to drive in the snowiest part of the US east of the Rockies. Our town averaged about 200" of snow a year…with some years approaching 400". Use to travel to the Tug-Hill Plateau for skiing all winter…and that area can see over 500" of snow. The ONLY people who ever used chains were the plow drivers. No one else used chains - EVER. And we didn’t have car pile-ups all the time. People there know how to drive in snow.
Here in NH…we do get snow…but not that much. I can usually count on one hand the number of times I need to drive on snow covered roads each year. Plows do a good job of keeping the roads clear. And the 1-2 big winter storms we get…I’ll usually stay at home until the plows come by.
"Never said that chains won't stop you better or get you moving better. I said they aren't needed. I don't have any problems stopping or moving in snow without chains. So why are the NEEDED."
Well, I think we are down to semantics now - as in what is the meaning of “needed”. So, first I will point out that you also said chains were needed under particular conditions - “The ONLY time you need chains is when you running on hilly/mountainous roads in deep snow.”
Based on this, I made the the following claims that I can support with additional video evidence if the above video didn’t convince you:
It is harder to stop on compact snow than in deep snow.
I think stopping is more important to safety than going.
Chains are effective on compact snow.
So, if you “need chains is when you running on hilly/mountainous roads in deep snow”, then it seems obvious that they are needed in the conditions I described.
When people have accidents (as described earlier in this thread, or as in the video), that most likely could have been prevented with a set of tire chains, then I don’t think it is stretching to say they needed chains.
"People there know how to drive in snow."
That’s excellent. Drivers that “know how to drive in snow” are definitely the best way to be safe driving in snow. But, there are a huge number of drivers that don’t know how to drive in the snow. Tire chains would make these drivers much, much safer, as well as making it much more likely that they will get where they want to go.
I never said everyone driving on snow should have chains on. I drive on snow all the time and rarely put chains on. But, for about the price of a tank of gas, you can have a very good (I’m not saying perfect) insurance policy - for the life of your car - that you can drive safely in snow. It seems like a really good deal to me.
PS - I don’t think the numbers are that important, but since you brought them up I can’t stop myself from playing the game. Snoqualmie Pass, Washington (State), my favorite stomping ground, averages over 400" of snow per year. But again, deep snow is generally less dangerous than thin layers of compact snow.
I cautiously comment. I don’t think there is any question that chains will help with traction on snow and ice, just that when you factor in the driving conditions for a lot of folks, its no longer cost/hassle factor/beneficial.
Now I do have some issues with comments on people knowing how to drive on ice and snow, and some of the comments on the videos saying they are from Norway and know how to drive. If you have 4WD with snows with studs on all four, that is quite an advantage. Of course in Minnesota, studs are not allowed, and roads are cleared to dry pavement pretty quick, thus the cost/benefit issue with winter tires even. Knowing how to avoid a skid, or correcting for a skid, or stopping on ice, does not mean you can drive any faster than one who doesn’t know these things. People think they are a lot better than they are so will drive 50 instead of 40 with an extra margin of safety, then will be surprised to find out that 47 was the limit for traction and spin off the road. If you have no traction at 20 on ice, knowing how to drive really has little to do with it. Having respect for the road conditions though, and providing a safety margin is more important.
In a modern normal car, it is quite difficult to know how slippery a road is at night, going 40-50, until you hit the point where you lose traction-then it could be too late. The Highway Patrol say that applying the brakes at low speed, or hitting the gas to see what it takes to spin the wheels is one of the best ways to tell. Unfortunately you would have to come to a near stop on the freeway to use this method. Most of the time you don’t have that option. I used to car pool with a girl that believed the best way was to speed the car up to the point where the rear wheels broke away, then reduce speed slightly. So she was always driving right at the point of losing traction. I preferred more of a safety margin than that. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t know how to drive in snow and ice because I prefer a wider safety margin.
Of course master recovering from skids, avoiding skids, braking and accelerating, but then just don’t get so cocky, slow down a little, increase the distances between you an others, and relax.