Most Italian drivers aren’t as tall as Tom Selleck . . .
@WheresRick
Probably because most of the time truck based 4 wds are not good in slippery weather when driven at highway speeds. Notice I always refer to Awd NOT truck based 4 wd. So your comment is a diversion. . Totally without proof. I highly doubt your survey is very scientific. Most people off the road in our state statistically were those with poor tires and driving too fast for conditions regardless of the drive train. When I investigated accidents, those were the stats available to me. A passerby would never have a clue. Poor car preparation and poor driving are the big causes for losing control. EXACTLY the same reason for cars going off the road in good weather. Awd cars with snow tires offer the best chance for maintaining control in all poor weather conditions. With all due respect, throwing in a subjective survey is the typical response when faced with FACTS. The modern Awd car with traction and stability control and the right tires is the best car to be in according to all OBJECTIVE slippery road handling tests especially when accelerating or with power on which you spend most of your time doing in all conditions. You can Make up all your side comments about poor driving habits and subjective observations because you have obviously never spent a winter driving in slippery conditions in an Awd car with the right tires. The biggest problem drivers of Awd cars with winter tires have in winter driving s avoiding out of control poorly prepared and driver of any car regardless of drive train.
Let’s say you are a wonderful poor weather driver for the sake of argument. You would still be significantly safer in an Awd car, especially when making accident avoiding maneuvers and driving at the correct pace in slippery conditions. Correct pace is not always the slowest on slippery roads though you can more safely drive slower in an Awd car. Stopping is not more important then going. They are equally important for slippery driving. You need both for control. You spend MORE time with your foot on the accelerator when driving then your foot on the brake in all conditions.
I think stopping and starting are just as important. Handling (turning) also happens to be pretty important, and it seems to be an aspect left out of this discussion.
James Garner was a highly respected stunt driver before he became Rockford. He was actually faster than the stunt drivers the studio hired and the footage shot with him behind the wheel was generally the one used.
One of my all-time favorite shows.
Along that vain…In the movie “The Great Escape” - Steve McQueen had a seen where he was jumping this motorcycle over a 6’ high barbed-wire fence to escape the Nazi’s. So for the filming they had a couple of stunt drivers for the scene…But they couldn’t do it. McQueen was a very accomplished motorcycle driver…so he said he could do it (took him one take). And James Garner was also in that movie.
@Whitey
Not by me. I harp on it constantly.
Stopping is not more important then going.I disagree going is optional, stopping and steering is mandatory.
I think one of the reasons stopping has been harped on is because of many inexperienced drivers in 4wd vehicles. Many don’t understand…just because you have very good traction and can get going much better then 2wd…you still can’t stop any better. I’ve seen many people driving 4wd vehicles in snowy conditions and they are less then 20’ behind the car in front of them “thinking they have a 4wd vehicle so they can stop better too.”
@PvtPublic You selectively omit me saying that stopping is equally important. Not being able to “go” effectively and under control creates safety issues for EVERYONE around you. BTW, awd cars can stop equally as well.
Unconsciously when driving on slippery roads, how easily you can accelerate has a big bearing on your cruising speed. People without winter tires and/or with 2wd tend to drive too fast approaching hills, too fast entering merging lanes and coast instead of stopping before intersections that are slippery. I see it all the time. Emergency stopping distances for awd cars with winter tires is often better when they drive slower in hilly areas, merging and approaching intersections. Because they start from a stop and accelerate easily, they can drive slowly or stop and not worry about starting again. There are many intersections at the crests of hills in our area and people in snow with two wheel drive and/or poor traction tires are always blowing through red lights with their cars. You really have to beware when traveling the other way…
Going is not optional. It’s mandatory on our road ways, even in snow, unless you want to break the law.
BTW, when accelerating or maintaining speed with power on, awd corners better then fwd in all conditions ! And, if you want worse traction still in fwd cars, throw a few people and /or gear in the back. So typically, fwd only has weight advantages when unloaded while awd is less affected in snow when carrying heavier loads.
“If my Florida plates aren’t enough to explain why I’m driving slow on snow and ice, well, let’s just say I don’t really care”
If you drive in MA with your Florida license plates AND your left turn signal continuously flashing, we’ll know you’re from Florida. Otherwise, you’re likely to be associated with the 10,000 other drivers running with Florida plates just to avoid the state registration fees, excise taxes and inspection requirements 
I think stopping, starting, and swerving are all over-rated. Riding is better than all of them. 
In this never ending discussion comparing New Hampshire driving with Wisconsin or North Dakota, there was an article in Car and Driver this month on winter tires. The article said if they are used above 45 degree they will wear very quickly and they only last 13,000 miles. I dunno, so far this year we got about 35 inches of snow and I think I’ve got about 8 hours on my snow blower in Minnesota. I’ve probably driven 500 miles on roads with snow or ice. Like I said, although it would be nice for those 500 miles, I just don’t see the cost/benefit of new winter tires every season or AWD year round for my needs anyway. Carrying around all that extra weight and mechanisms for AWD and the lowered mileage, plus the expense and hassle of changing tires twice a year just doesn’t seem to do it for me. Now if I lived out in the country or on a mountain, the benefit might exceed the cost/hassle factor.
And I also tend to drive a little slower in bad weather but when I come across someone driving really slow, I just don’t like having to use the usually more snow covered left lane to go around them. I understand them driving slower, but still find it more dangerous for me. I’ve seen a lot of folks go in the ditch but what scares me is how often the SUVs end up bouncing and flipping over instead of just skidding into the ditch.
Just me but I do not trust four or all wheel drive in snowy conditions. Probably becayse I have never used it, grew up with 2wd rear, and that is what I have with the GM on demand 4wd, it kicks in when you need it to accelerate then goes away. I know my work truck hates making parking lot turns in 4 hi, binding etc.
Anyone out there with a comparison of handling in turns etc with awd, or 4wd engaged?
Stopping is not more important then going. They are equally important for slippery driving. You need both for control. You spend MORE time with your foot on the accelerator when driving then your foot on the brake in all conditions.
Its the stop that kills you though… So In my mind being able to come to a gradual controlled stop is just as important or more important than starting out.
Here is the following advisory that was sent out today. It sounds like it was aimed towards some really dim people, but that’s how bad it is here, the majority of the population of Indiana is stupid… Really, We are like a bunch of Dim witted spoiled brats waiting on santy clause.
"Indiana’s next blast of winter weather is upon us. Warnings about hazardous driving conditions will be issued by city, county and state law enforcement as well as by local and national media. Many will heed the warnings. Many more will ignore the warnings. With another major storm approaching, the Indiana State Police, again, remind motorists to limit travel when possible. If travel is not necessary, then stay home. Most calls for service received by the Indiana State Police and other police agencies during winter storms are for crashes and motorists that slide off state roads and interstates. It is important to remember that snow and ice covered roads do not cause crashes. The crashes are caused by unsafe driving on the snow and ice covered roadway.
If you choose to drive during poor or hazardous driving conditions you must:
- Leave sooner and expect your travel time to be twice as long as normal
- Drive slower
- Increase the following distance between you and the vehicle in front of you by at least five times greater than normal
- Approach intersections with great care; other drivers not paying attention will slide through red lights
- Signal all lane changes and turning movements
The posted speed limit may be more than twice as fast as the reduced speed drivers should travel to reduce the possibility of a collision or loss of control that puts a vehicle into a retaining wall, ditch or another motorist. Indiana code 9-21-5-1 specifies “Speed shall be restricted as necessary to avoid colliding with a person, vehicle, or other conveyance on, near or entering a highway.” Motorists losing control of their vehicle or who are involved in a crash resulting in a police report should expect to be cited for this offense, which carries a maximum fine of $500.
If you are involved in a crash, are uninjured and all vehicles are drivable, involved drivers should move to a safe place completely off the road, be it the next exit or to the parking lot of a business to await law enforcement response for a police report. It is important to remember crashes involving injury or lane blockage receive priority attention ahead of property damage crashes. So, keep in mind, it may be an extended period of time before law enforcement arrives. The reason and purpose for moving drivable vehicles off the road is to avoid secondary crashes of other inattentive motorists crashing into your scene or sideswiping you if you’ve only moved to the side of the road.
Something else to keep in mind, crash scenes with vehicles disabled in the roadway and state police presence may have the state police vehicle facing the wrong way with emergency lights and headlights on. This is to warn approaching motorists of impending danger.
Remember, Indiana’s Move Over Law states motorists MUST change lanes away from the emergency or utility vehicle if they can do it SAFELY. If not possible to move away from the emergency vehicle, motorists must SLOW DOWN and proceed with caution. Please give us room to work. We are asking motorists to SLOW DOWN and/or MOVE OVER WHEN SAFE TO DO SO.
Vehicles included in the Move Over law are:
• Police vehicles
• Ambulances
• Fire trucks and rescue equipment
• Highway incident-response vehicles
• Highway work vehicles-including snow plows
• Vehicle recovery equipment (tow trucks)
The point of not calling police agencies for road information during snow emergencies cannot be overstressed. Calling police departments about road conditions may delay action on critical life emergency 911 calls. Road conditions are likely the same for the area you want to know about as it is looking out your front window. "
On my drive home there was 3 inches of snow on the ground and it was snowing and blowing fairly heavy. I passed two people in the ditch and seen one wreck happen. All of this was on a 5 mile drive home, some people were driving way too fast and tailgating was rampant.
We can argue about tires, 2wd vs 4wd vs Awd, this and that but tonight what I witnessed was many people in a big hurry driving too fast for conditions following too closely. I was in a 4x4 pickup truck and had it in 2wd and had no problem what so ever.
4wd does not make a vehicle stop quicker. Nor does Awd.
@Barkydog
Just me but I do not trust four or all wheel drive in snowy conditions. Probably becayse I have never used it,
Given that you have only driven an on demand 4wd system which is probably one of the more awkward and potentially dangerous systems you can drive at highway speeds in slippery conditions, I don’t wonder you have little trust for other systems.
4wd truck base systems lock the differential at 50/50 front and rear and is made for slow, off road performance. When cornering, the wheels need to spin at different rates, or at least try to on snow at higher speeds to help maintain control. At 20 mph this may be no big deal. But if it suddenly comes on while cornering or any time like yours does, your handling characteristics suddenly change. With a manual 4wd system, even in 2wd, there are few surprises as you know when it’s in. With modern awd, the system never locks and better ones even shift torque before any wheel spin keeping handling as neutral as possible.
My good friend, beg borrow or steal a Subaru with winter tires and drive it in snow covered roads or ice conditions for a day. Legitimate claims about awd and not those based on an archaic GM attempt to save money with a cheap pretender to legitimate awd can then be made. My 4 Runner gives you a similar system to Subaru awd (not as good as few are) performance in one mode and completely locks for off road in another. They are separate systems, one for on road and one for off. Driving a more modern awd car, not a truck with an off road system that kicks in unexpectedly, would be an eye opener. ;=()
@wheresRick
Its the stop that kills you though… So In my mind being able to come to a gradual controlled stop is just as important or more important than starting out.
I guess you differ from my thinking. I think BOTH stopping well and being able to control a car while driving and slowing down are both EQUALLY essential to avoiding accidents and each may be used concurrently during an accident avoiding maneuver in slippery driving conditions. You can accelerate as quickly and as prudently out of dangerous situations like intersections, merging and turning control while going up hills which fwd all finds very wanting. I guarantee that any awd driver with the right tires has more options to avoid accidents then ANY FWD CAR in snow and on ice.
Mass is scheduled for 12 inches of snow tomorrow. My daughter in law will probably get the day off but my son in Mass. and daughter in Manchester will have to go to work. I feel better knowing he has a Rogue AWD and she has a CRV AWD they will each take to work ! I’m not worried at all with my appointments tomorrow for the same reasons. Both my kids took my advice and have at least one awd in their stable. They owe it to their kids when living in snow country to always be prepared.
SOOOOO many times, with 4x4 and AWD, accelerating IS the safe maneuver. it IS the best way to control the vehicle.
Been there -done that.
Plus, on too many AWD systems, you MUST have at least slight acceleration or you have NO AWD !
it has to know you need it to engage it.
Coasting…or braking can cause a slide that can be driven out of with acceleration…not roostertails , just some ‘‘make it go in the direction I want it to’’…
THIS is what we mean by ‘‘learn your vehicle’’ and , sadly, far too many people don’t.
The same mountainbike
Let’s see this last snow and ice storm down south, most people were at work and decided to try and get home, that is they made a choice to leave someplace warm and safe. Now, you can say kids or whatever but they did in most cases make a choice to be on the road.
In fact many kids stayed at school because they couldn’t get home, people may have felt they didn’t have a choice, but they did.
I believe “the right tires” beats AWD. In fact it’s amazing how fast you can go on a frozen lake on a motorcycle if it has “the right tires”.
Motorcycle ice racing is big in Russia, here’s a video.