Water for fuel?

Maintenance/Repairs
101

No, unfortunately you are missing the principle. The maximum efficiency of an Otto-cycle engine occurs with constant-volume detonation. Rather than going into Carnot theory here I suggest you Google constant-volume combustion and Carnot cycle. The efficiency gain produced (in some cases) by the HHO has NOTHING to do with the energy added (or more correctly, work done) by the detonation of a minuscule amount of HHO (reread my initial post). Even a modern, well-engineered diesel engine fails to capture over half the ideal work because the combustion isn’t at constant volume. A spark-ignition (SI) engine is even worse. Any impact the HHO may have is to move the combustion closer to the constant-volume ideal. As an analogy, think of a catalyst that promotes a chemical interaction. The energy produced by a catalytically-assisted reaction isn’t directly released by the catalyst. The catalyst simply makes the existing chemical reaction more efficient (or enables it, in some cases). By shortening the duration of the combustion pulse, HHO may improve the efficiency in much the same way. The energy directly added by the HHO is irrelevant.

Again, I am not advocating this. I am simply trying to point out that the HHO is NOT a fuel, it is NOT simply adding additional energy to the energy produced by the gasoline. People who claim this really don’t understand the physics (and from what I have read on the web, the makers and sellers of this stuff don’t understand it either, or at least their arguments are vague and poor). OF COURSE energy is conserved, just as it is in a catalytic reaction. Any benefit HHO may have comes ONLY in improving the combustion efficiency, moving it closer to the constant-volume ideal.

Finally, engines are designed with a particular detonation profile in mind, so tinkerers should be aware that changing that could have bad long-term effects. My post only concerned the scientific validity, not whether it is a good idea.

102

But also irrelevant. The HHO isn’t adding any fuel energy to the process. Under some circumstances it changes the shape of the detonation pulse, which may make the engine more efficient (with other possible side effects). Read my earlier posting. People claiming the efficiency comes from the energy in the HHO are missing the point.

103

so if your earlier post states; ‘the introduction of hydrogen MAY make an earlier(therefore more complete) combustion.’ this would indicate either an out of tune, or improperly adjusted engine. why not just PROPERLY tune, and either advance or retard spark to achieve the desired ‘full’ combustion?

where did you get the “changes the detonation pulse” from? this sounds like a pulstar statement!

although i may be wrong (it does happen and i am always learning from it); it has been my understanding that the speed of detonation is controlled by the spark timing, the temp of the plug, the shape of the nozzle, the size of the cylinder, the shape of the head and the gas octane. the compression ratio is fixed, and is not part of the equation. but, different engines can have a different compression ratio.

there seems to be a better way that to put on contraptions of questionable value, to ‘adjust’ what can be adjusted by manipulation of existing parameters and equipment.

104

The question is inartfully phrased. In fact, the HHO derived from the electrolysis of water is not “fuel”. It combines with the gasoline as it enters the engine to produce a hybrid fuel. The effect of HHO combined with gasoline is to provide a more complete and efficient burn. In that way, more power is realized from the same amount of gasoline. The air/fuel mixture can be made leaner. The exhaust is cleaner, greater horsepower and better fuel efficency is the result. Only small amounts of water must be electrolyzed to provide the small amounts of HHO needed to enhance the burning of gasoline, which remains the primary fuel of the engine.

105

Yes, I heard it. Clank and Clunk joked around and basically called the guy an idiot (after he was off the phone), but never at any point flat-out told the caller that he was being conned. I fired off an email expressing my disappointment with them for not warning the caller about this scam, and wondering if they remembered any of their physics and thermodynamics from MIT.

106

No, I think your description of the variables governing detonation speed is pretty good. And yes, there are probably generally other better ways to improve efficiency. As I have said several times, I am not advocating this. However, it sounds like you understand engine design. So you are aware that Otto cycle engines fall well below the theoretical Carnot optimum because the combustion doesn’t occur at constant volume. The only way to approach this constant-volume limit is by compressing the detonation pulse (thus the statement that you think makes me sound like a Pulstar shill – and no, I don’t advocate those either, although they have been well studied both via models and in the lab, much better than this). It really is more than “full” combustion. Pre-swirl, turbulence control, and all sorts of things have been used (and are being used) to attempt to accomplish this. I have been searching for a public-domain reference on the web that I can cite without requiring interested parties to buy the papers. If I find one I’ll post the link. IBM has simulated the general problem with KIVA both in the US and abroad, as have several other labs (Sandia, LANL, UMich).

I thought of another way to phrase this for the “conservation of energy” folks. As we all know, energy, work, and heat are all the same thing. In an IC engine, the energy from fuel combustion is converted to useful work plus waste heat: E = W+H. Unfortunately, H is much larger than W. All HHO injection does (or attempts to do, if you prefer) is shift the amounts of W and H. Energy is still conserved.

107

I’m confusing nothing. You’re the one claiming hydrogen combusts the fuel more quickly and leads to faster propogation of the flame front. I never said once that hydrogen itself causes pre-ignition but if one uses your argument then pre-ignition can be caused by the introduction of hydrogen into the engine.

I’m also not confusing things for one minute by by the loose spark plug wire arguement in response to that bogus capacitive discharge spark plug scam (a.k.a. Pulstar).
You claim to be scope proficient so I ask this. How much scope experience on a daily basis with automotive ignition systems?
Second question. When that ignition coil discharges what happens at the spark plug in relation to coil dwell time, discharge voltages, etc.?

108

Until you can explain how combustion that occurs AFTER the spark can cause pre-ignition, this conversation is over.

Also, you sound like a garage mechanic, not someone who has read a research journal (ever?). If you had you would know that a great deal of both numerical modeling and in-lab work has been done on spark energy deposition, to address specifically the issues I discussed. Try Googling ORNL (Oak Ridge National Lab), UMich, or Sandia together with spark-energy deposition or internal combustion modeling. I suspect there’s a world out there you know nothing about.

109

Encreader:
I’ve read what you, Cappy208, and OK4450 are saying and need to side with their positions. You make some valid arguments but they tend to go against the grain of what I learned in my physics and internal combustion engines course. I’ll keep reading your replies to try to see if I can learn something from what you’re trying to say.

110

Assuming for a moment that the energy equation is being changed, how is heat transfer to the cylinder walls being altered?

I can understnd that perhaps the fuel is more completely burned, but this should only account for a few percentage points - not 60% as is being quoted.

111

How is the A/F ratio becoming leaner? The car cannot sense when HHO is present. The car’s sensors operate merely on the ratio of uncombusted oxygen, via the oxygen sensor, to regulate fuel mixture. If you are indeed merely bolting this contraption on and receiving better mileage how does the car sense to lean out the mixture? You would need to alter the fuel curves in the ECM to lean the mixture out, likely with an additional sensor and parameter curve for it, to sense the ratio of HHO present and adjust accordingly (this would be IF I believed that HHO actually altered the fuel properties of the gasoline which I do not believe).

HHO does not “combine” with gasoline either, BTW. For one thing, no matter how finely your fuel injector sprays the gasoline it remains a liquid and the HHO gas will not willingly combine with it. Even if it could, the fuel is injected into the cylinder and the HHO is coming from the manifold. In a running engine they’d have a very small fraction of a second to mix.

Apparently, since the device can easily be disproven as an addition of energy it now mixes with gasoline to create some magical “new” fuel that burns cleaner/leaner/hotter/cooler/faster/slower/etc/etc

112

<< How is the A/F ratio becoming leaner? >>

With a carburetor-fueled car, you manually lean the A/F ratio to the best operation. For a fuel-injected car, an adjustable device called an “Electronic Fuel Injector Enhancer” is used to reset the computerized oxygen sensor to compensate for the addition of HHO. The better HHO generator manufacturers make such devices.

<< HHO does not “combine” with gasoline either >>

Gasoline enters the combustion chamber with HHO-enriched air, where it mixes and ignites. You’re aware added oxygen enhances ignition, yes? And hydrogen is 3-times as volatile as gasoline. Ever notice that your car runs a little better in very humid air?

113

Let’s see oif I got this right. You’ll take energy from the car’s engine to split the hydrogen and oxygen, put the H and O back into the engine, recombine them to release exactly as much energy as it took to split them, and expect some kind of gain somewhere?

Stick to the internet ads for male enhancement products. The vendors are more reputable and the products are more reliable.

114

It’s not free - when there’s a load on the alternator (like the car’s air conditioner, for example), the engine has to work harder. Electrolysis would just be another load.

115

With a carburetor-fueled car, you manually lean the A/F ratio to the best operation. For a fuel-injected car, an adjustable device called an “Electronic Fuel Injector Enhancer” is used to reset the computerized oxygen sensor to compensate for the addition of HHO. The better HHO generator manufacturers make such devices.

The advertisements and testimonials for these products do not contain references or instructions for this step. These devices in most instances claim to work on any year automobile without additional hardware, merely bolt-on-and-go, etc, etc. The various people who come on this site occasionally and claim to have seen an XX% increase in their fuel mileage did so by ONLY installing the electrolysis device and turning it on. Perhaps I’ve not dealt with any of the “better” HHO generator companies. I will look into this particular claim.

Gasoline enters the combustion chamber with HHO-enriched air, where it mixes and ignites. You’re aware added oxygen enhances ignition, yes? And hydrogen is 3-times as volatile as gasoline. Ever notice that your car runs a little better in very humid air?

If HHO is “mixing” with gasoline it is only in so far as the gasoline droplets are hovering around in a cylinder with a several% higher concentration of Hydrogen. Yes, your car does run better in somewhat more humid air. Therein, however, you illustrate the entire issue at hand. Humid air is HHO already combined as H2O (water). It is not broken apart. When the engine fires it does not break H20 into HHO. It merely evaporates the H20 into a different state of H20 (steam). Your car runs better in humid air for a number of reasons, but none of them are for the same reasons claimed to be improved by an HHO generator. In more humid air preignition is reduced so the car can run slightly more ignition timing. Heat is kept down on internal compnents, etc. Humid air typically remains cooler as it is sucked into the engine, and cooler air remains denser (more oxygen) resulting in more horsepower. This is the same reason why many drag-racing applications use “water injection” in their engines.

HOWEVER, this has nothing to do with the HHO generators being discussed here. If the only benefits of the HHO are the same as with humid air (H2O) then you can simply inject a mist of water into the engine for the same results with fewer losses. Water injection has been around for many years, and no one is disagreeing that water-injection has some benefits. This defeats the purpose of wasting energy to break the bonds apart to trun H2O into HHO.

And no, I am not aware tha “adding oxygen enhances ignition”. Adding more oxygen than is necessary for complete combustion (thereby creating an A/F ratio more lean than ideal) DOES NOT ENHANCE IGNITION. In fact, it is detrimental to complete combustion. A lean condition promotes preignition. If the fuel ignites too early, not only do you lose pwer from it, but it doesn’t combust completely because it isn’t fully compressed, resulting in a loss of both power and economy. Lean-conditions also boost heat levels which are extrememely dangerous for iternal components like pistons and cylinder heads.

Hydrogen being 3-times as volatile as air adds nothing to your argument. You just finished stating that the HHO isn’t being used as a fuel itself but rather that it combines with gasoline. Now it isn’t “combining” with gasoline, but rather is creating a better environment for combustion.

To put it simply, the “better environment” you’re describing sounds the same as that of mere water-injection. And do you know why you can’t water-inject a daily driven modern car? Modern cars take great care to pass emissions standards. To pass these emissions standards they must run at a fairly hot temperature. This ensures complete combustion with a minimum of byproducts. Water injection keeps the combustion temps down to increase horsepower, but if you water inject a modern car you’ll fail your emissions test every time.

If you have any sources that state in some technical terms (formulas, chemistry, anything tangible) exactly how HHO can promote better combustion besides the same way that ordinary water-injection can I’d love to see it.

116

I was suprised that Tom & Ray didn’t explain more about this issue when it arose on the show 5-17-08. A whole lot of people are getting onboard as high gasoline prices in the US are the new norm. Lots of hydrogen generation projects are underway and some for more than auto applications (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMovXzVOzc4)(google: Stanley Meyer).
It appears the introduction of HHO into the combustion chamber causes a more efficient burning of gasoline. On the downside, the valves and exhaust system should be replaced with stainless materials so as to prevent rapid deterioration due to high temp water vapor in the exhaust.

117

Stanley Meyer’s “invention” was disproved years ago. He submitted it for testing and verification to a team of impartial engineers who found it was nothing more than an ordinary electrolysis machine and that the car steadily lost energy because the engine put out less than what it took to electrolyze the water.

Meyer’s theory was that water had a “harmonic frequency” and that if you applied electricity pulsed at this frequency the water would break apart with less energy required than burning it would produce (perpetual motion). There is an entire forum of people dedicated to reproducing this engine. They have Meyer’s own patents, and have built it to his exact specifications time and again and none has been able to duplicate Meyer’s results (because they were faked).

Then Meyers died and became a conspiracy theory. People claim he was killed because he “knew too much” and that his work was confiscated, etc. Then someone in India reproduced Meyers results and was threatened by his government and had his stuff taken away too. If you think that HHO increasing mileage is a bit hard to swallow, you’ll be REALLY suspicious of Meyer’s engine and subsequent conspiracies.

118

You’re exactly right; I’m only a lowly garage mechanic who deals in real world mechanicals. I can explain the combustion process and pre-ignition in plain English but before doing so I’ll ask a question here. Consider my previous unanswered questions null and void except for the one about automotive oscilloscope work.
How much experience do you have on automotive oscilloscopes?

You made mention of those capacitive discharge plugs in a previous post and my question is this.
Are you saying that a spark plug that emits a 10k volt discharge is less effective than one that emits a 20k volt, 40k volt, etc. discharge?

119

You are correct, this should only account for a few percentage points, not 60% or some such. Please note I never claimed this (60%) or advocated that anyone do it. I was going to post a cartoon explaining how this works, then I found much better cartoons in a nice lecture at www.bae.uky.edu/shearer/BAE_517_Off-Road_Vehicle_Design/Chapter%204%20%20Lecture.ppt. The intent of any of these devices is to get the actual SI Otto cycle in his Figure 4.2 to perform closer to the optimum in Figure 4.1. The lecture also includes the relevant equations for those who are so inclined. By collapsing the combustion phase toward the upper-left hand of the curve in Fig. 4.2, the area inside the curve is increased (work done) and it moves closer to the optimum. It also points out the hazards of doing this in an existing engine. The engine has been designed for the loads (chemical, thermal, and mechanical) it experiences following the curve in Figure 4.2. Deviating from this curve could have unintended consequences. I believe Tom and Ray recommended the caller do his experiment on a clunker. It was probably good advice.

120

My understanding is that HHO is in gaseous form when it passes the intake valves and recombines to water vapor in the combustion chamber, the recombination facilitating the more complete burn of gasoline. One of the HHO generator manufacturers (MagDrive) claims the water vapor passes through the rest of the very hot exhaust system as steam without adhering.