The Slick Road did not cause your wreck!

@dagosa @bing

I totally agree, most times when you hit an animal its unavoidable. I have been in situations where I have panic stopped to avoid a deer and missed it. If I had been traveling faster than the 55mph speed limit I likely would have hit it. The roads around here are 55mph for a reason, they are hilly, curvy, have hidden driveways and blind hills.

I’ve been in a multi-car crash on the highway. Roads were slick…I was doing about 30mpg in a 55 zone. The problem is - I came around the bend in a road and I less then 100’ to stop. Sorry…I don’t care who you are - you couldn’t stop in time.

One other time I was in the middle of a multi-car pileup. But I was able to avoid hitting anyone and got lucky no-one hit me.

There are just too many conditions and factors to say you can avoid an accident like this all the time. Someone who says that is naive and very inexperienced driver.

Many years ago on I-90 in NY there was a 100 car pileup. If you ever drove on I-90 between Albany and Syracuse there are many many hills. The accident occurred at the bottom of one of those hills. I-90 was pure ice. When the vehicles reached the top of the hill - there was no way to stop before they crashed into the vehicles at the bottom of the hill. There were several deaths.

Now Boston area - (on I-95 (or the natives call rt 128)) - is the only place I’ve ever seen a 30 car pile up on a nice sunny dry warm summer day.

One thing I learned from jury duty is the meaning of “proximate cause”. Icy conditions are certainly a proximate cause of accidents, so is driving too fast. An event can have more than one proximate cause. If your negligence is found to be a proximate cause of an event, you can be held liable for that event even if there are other proximate causes.

@mikeinnh

I've been in a multi-car crash on the highway. Roads were slick...I was doing about 30mpg in a 55 zone. The problem is - I came around the bend in a road and I less then 100' to stop. Sorry...I don't care who you are - you couldn't stop in time.

What if you had been driving 5-10 mph? If you couldn’t stop from 30 mph in 100 feet to avoid a collision then 30 mph was too fast. It takes 10 times as long to stop on ice than it does on dry roads.

You are saying it was impossible to stop, you are right, it was impossible to stop from 30mph. You were in a hurry or simply driving too fast and you crashed. If you had been going 5mph you would have been able to safely stop. You gambled and you lost. Why is everyone in such a hurry? What did you gain by crashing your car?

Sometimes conditions are so bad, the only safe speed is 5 or 10 mph. When we go faster than conditions allow, we are taking a chance. Most times everything is ok and we luck out. Sometimes we do not.

There are just too many conditions and factors to say you can avoid an accident like this all the time. Someone who says that is naive and very inexperienced driver.

I work in a field where if you make a mistake or have an “accident” you will likely get killed. It has changed my perception of accidents. If I had the attitude “accidents happen” I would be dead right now. I think this is a big reason for my take on things, I have been reprogrammed to avoid “accidents” at all costs.

Most “accidents” are avoidable.

The likely hood of an “accident” goes up the more risks you take, The faster we drive the more risk of an “accident”. We have decided that speed limits are are a good balance between risk and practicality. Speed limits are set for dry roads, in rain you need twice the distance to stop, on ice you need 10 times the distance to stop. Slow down.

The same thing with the allowable BAC level for driving, We have compromised that .08 is a good balance between risk/reward. Everyone has better reaction time with no alcohol in their system. Many are people have to compulsively have a drink or two no matter what during certain occasions so we allow a driver to have some alcohol in their system and still allow driving.

I recommend you take a defensive driving course. It will be an Eye opener, it may even prevent another wreck, Im not trying to be condescending, I care about people. Mike, I don’t know you aside from a handful of posts from these forums, but I care about you, You seem like a really intelligent person that is fun to talk with. I don’t want you to be in a another wreck. Thats my argument.

I agree that many accident are avoidable. But on this forum, you’re preaching to the choir. Many accidents are un avoidable for those who are doing the right thing and still get in them. This is a totally different situation then working around heavy equipment that is in place. Single car accidents can be without a doubt, driver error driven with no animals or pedestrians etc. involved. But, some single car accidents are avoidance maneuver accidents and the vast majority of multiple car accidents have at least one participant who was completely law abiding when it occurred. There must then be a distinction made. A drunk on the highway is like a guided missile it seems to another driver and they are very difficult to avoid due to their erratic behavior regardless of how slow you drive. I would argue you you get away from an erratic driver as quickly and as safely as possible. Included, are cars and trucks with poorly secured loads etc.

The single best thing you can do regardless of the weather, is to maintain a cushin between you and other cars and trucks and pedestrians and cyclers and …you get my point. That very often, requires that you accelerate under control to create that cushin. That’s why I am a HUGE fan of Awd and winter tires. Can people abuse what Awd does ? Sure, just like you can abuse what winter tires does for you by driving too fast as well because you can accelerate better on those too.

Just “slowing down” can be one of the worse decisions you can make in slippery weather in some situations, especially where going through insections, climbing hills, merging and extracting yourself from being pent in on a freeway. Good judgement includes speeding up under control. It includes what ever it takes to maintain that cushin which gets ever larger as traction decreases.

Drunk driver, guided missile? You jest. I’m sure you meant ballistic missile. Maybe guided missile with a defective guidance system?

@keith
Please read the entire statement. " it seems " to another driver does not mean “it is” . Drunk drivers drive erratically. So much so, while investigating drunk driver accidents and getting responses of drivers that were hit or witnessed seemed to indicate no matter what single evasive maneuver they tried to make, it was never enough r correct or too late as the drunk driver did not follow suit and behaved irrationally. Some said it was almost like he( drunk driver) was “trying to hit me”. Obviously he wasn’t but some impaired drivers, up is down and right is left under stress. So, to the other drivers, " it seemed" like a guided missle they could not avoid. This is quite typical when confronting impaired drivers. What else is typical, like deer and other animals, they can have tunnel vision.

Not to argue again but sometimes driving 5-10 mph when the conditions call for 30 in a 55 speed limit road is simply not a “reasonable” solution. In heavy traffice going less than 25-30 can cause more accidents behind you or back traffic up for hours. Rarely have I been on a freeway that required 10 mph (absolute glare ice) and the usual bad weather speed is 30. If you have a 50 mile one way commute, going 5 mph will take 10 hours to get to work, then another 10 hours getting home. No time to sleep or work. Staying home on all these days, even with 7 weeks vacation time, is just not practical. So you do the reasonable cautious thing and drive at 30.

What if you had been driving 5-10 mph?

If I was driving 5-10mph…I would have been rear-ended by the trucks behind me…and they would have pushed me into the accident.

You were in a hurry or simply driving too fast and you crashed

Doing 30 in a 55mpg zone and I’m in a hurry?? You OBVIOUSLY don’t drive much. When you get over a million miles under your belt …come back and talk to me.

Driving in the northeast where the weather changes in the drop of a hat means you can’t make general statements about conditions and how fast you drive. When a semi is barreling down on you on a 55 mph two lane highway in your rear view mirror while you’re doing 5 to 10 mph, you need more options then just driving slower. Dropping the hammer on an Awd car like a Subaru with snow tires is one. In a state where in some areas, black ice is the norm, I counted 8 Awd cars in one row to two 2wd cars in a parking lot at the local general store. It’s our state car for a reason. You can drive both slower or faster what ever good judgement dictates. Stick that up your 2wd tailpipes…;=)

Today we are having guests over for dinner to watch the football playoff game. I plan on ferrying them in over snow and ice cover roads with an awd car with snow tires. No, I won’t be driving 5 to 10 miles per hour. I’ll be driving whatever speed I should be.

@mikeinnh

If I was driving 5-10mph..I would have been rear-ended by the trucks behind me...and they would have pushed me into the accident.

How could the crash have been avoided then? I have worked ice storms where everything is covered in ice, when you drive a 30,000lbs truck in these conditions you learn to go really slow or you will have a wreck.

I remember one time driving down a rural winding road in an ice storm, trees were snapped everywhere and there was an inch of ice on everything, I was only able to go a few mph to get to where I was going. Once I got out of the truck I had to wear ice cleats to even be able to walk, as soon as I put the outriggers on the truck down it started sliding away. Thats the iciest conditions I have ever seen and I survived accident free because I took my time.

@mikeinnh

Doing 30 in a 55mpg zone and I'm in a hurry?? You OBVIOUSLY don't drive much. When you get over a million miles under your belt ....come back and talk to me.

I am in the million mile club as well, one million miles accident free driving everything from semi trucks to bucket trucks with flotation tires on them to ford mavericks with 4 wheel drum brakes. I wrecked a camaro when the brakes went out and you know what? It was 100% my fault. I take responsibility for my actions. After that camaro wreck I matured alot and proceeded to never have another crash.

When you get one million ACCIDENT FREE miles under your belt you can come back and talk to me. I know you don’t have a CDL because of your attitude towards driving and assigning blame to road conditions.

A million miles of going too fast for conditions and slamming into other cars because you couldn’t stop in time does not impress me.

I don’t just drive to and from the office and have snow days when it gets really bad. I am out in the worst snow storms, the worst ice storms, the worst rain storms. When every one else is hunkering down in their houses I am headed into work. I know much more about driving in poor conditions than you think I do.

Hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, super storm sandy, Ice storms, snow storms, -30 degrees, I have seen it, you learn to be careful when working and driving in those conditions.

When you get one million ACCIDENT FREE miles under your belt you can come back and talk to me

WOW…You’re superman too???

I have seen it, you learn to be careful when working and driving in those conditions.

So basically what you’re saying is that EVERY SINGLE ACCIDENT in the WORLD was caused by people not being careful?

If you’ve NEVER been in an accident with 1 million mile of driving (which I seriously doubt)…then all I can say is that you were LUCKY. I don’t care who you are…there situations in driving you can NOT avoid…I don’t care who you THINK you are or how well you THINK you drive. Sure you can reduce your risk…but completely avoid??? But can’t argue with self proclaimed geniuses.

On one road near my workplace it’s pretty easy to do 55+ on it, especially after you get off work. There is no speed limit sign, though it does have an implied speed limit as a county road(45mph IIRC)
While we were at work Friday, we got a few inches of the heavy, wet snow and 25~30 was what I, and the traffic in front of me, was doing on the way home. Turning into the residential area I live in, it was difficult to distinguish the road from the sidewalks, save for the parked cars along the sides of the street.

“Turning into the residential area I live in, it was difficult to distinguish the road from the sidewalks, save for the parked cars along the sides of the street.”

Sounds like my road the entire winter. But instead of sidewalks. we have 4 foot deep ditches that are hidden under snow. The only cars and trucks you see “parked” on the side are usually, “on their side”.

One winter after after a resident had the road sanded to get an oil delivery, the oil truck on the way out coming down the steep hill to the “main” road nearly collided with the school bus letting off kids at the bottom. The only way to avoid a collision was to roll a half full oil truck onto it’s side in the ditch. He was driving 5 mph at the time. It was sanded when he went in and a sudden squall that was not predicted left him with terrible conditions coming out. He was doing nothing wrong as he rounded a blind corner at the top of the hill and began sliding out of control for the next two hundred fifty yards down hill. I suppose he could have just left the truck parked in the middle of this slightly wider then 1 lane road at the top and let every one else slide into it. Some times “crap” happens.

So…we do need to see a realization that accidents are avoidable MOST of the time. But, we need an acknowledgement that doing everything perfectly NEVER makes you immune to them. This is a great thread and there are good reponses. But absolutes always bring disagreements as they well should.

I live in central TX, a place that rarely experiences a winter storm, however, when we do get a winter storm, it’s almost always an ice storm, coating the roads with a 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick layer of glaze ice. I’ve witnessed stopped vehicles with the brakes locked start to slide sideways down a hill on this stuff. It’s like driving a Zamboni on a skating rink, a skating rink with hills. A lot of smug northern transplants here love to make fun of how we close schools for only 1/8 inch of ice, until their car is in the ditch.
Yes we can drive on snow, anybody can drive on snow, the first time I drove on actual snow, I was amazed at how treacherous it was not.
Of course, the people up north sometimes get these conditions also, that’s when 30 car pileups make the evening news.

@BLE
You are right. Snow is not that tough…until you get to hills. Don’t know what there are for hills in Texas but from Whichita Falls to Dallas when I was there, I did see one knoll. Ice requires a different mindset. You have to pretend you’re driving without brakes. So the idea that " anyone can drive in snow" is one if those absolutes that get a lot of people in trouble when you throw in HILLS and MOUNTAINS. Even a slight hill in heavy wet snow can turn an inexperienced driver into a sniveling whimp. ;=) and tempering ones advice to coincide with experience is the wise thing to do. I would feel safer in a snow storm with a seasoned Mainer in a 2wd car then an inexperienced Texan with a 4wd truck.

Btw, where some of us live, we drive over ice and snow EVERY day of the winter. Unpaved roads in the woods does that and Maine has lots of woods and unpaved roads.