sorry about the delayed response. we’ve had a bit more snow here, so i’ve been working some overtime.
@keith: i understood your advice about getting other opinions and appreciate your concern about replacing parts that aren’t actually the problem. i did get a second opinion and only said that there was something wrong with the suspension, so i feel like that was an honest assessment of the problem. also, i do not have a way to raise the car.
one of the shops i called said it was pretty common for my car to need this repair. he’s done it on cars with as little as 40k…something about the setup was changed starting in 2002 (vertical to horizontal maybe?) and it is not as durable.
anyway i have an appointment on monday with a local garage, so hopefully they’ll be able to diagnose and fix it. again, i’ve only told them there is a suspension issue and a thunk. the son races an '02 honda civic so is very familiar with the car. i’ll let you know what they say and get a picture if possible.
okeh…here’s the scoop: the bushings were shot - the passenger side had separated and the driver’s side probably had a month left before it needed replaced. honda switched from a horizontal setup to a “hockey puck” with a vertical rod which commonly wears out and will make a sound. parts cost $44; labor, $193 = with tax $253! i still need to get an alignment. the car sounds better and feels tighter(?), although i’m getting less power than normal when i accelerate (and i’m sure that’s completely unrelated and needs looked at soon as well)
thanks for everyone’s input and suggestions. it was much appreciated!
@klu, thanks much for the update. I think you rank among the most reliable at reporting back. Don’t put off the alignment - for the sake of your tires and your safety.
The vertical bushing is acting as a trailing arm. It keeps the wheel from traveling forward to aft in relationship to the car. This is a new design to me, I have seen it on Toyota’s. Looks like a weak point in the new suspensions.
The control arm bushing I was thinking of is the horizontal one that the vertical movement of the tires pivots on. That bushing is held captive and usually does not cause any problems. The old style trailing arms and trailing arm bushings hardly ever caused any trouble either, but had more parts and required more assembly time at the factory.
They save in manufacturing costs, which in a perfect world would result in a lower cost for us when we buy the vehicle, but we pay for down the road.
@cigroller: you are welcome! i’m not very knowledgeable about cars so anything i can do to get help, i am most willing to do! i’ve got an alignment scheduled after i get paid next.
@keith: the mechanic said a lot of vehicles have switched to this new design unfortunately. he had a jeep in (that he sent back to dealership under warranty) that only had 34,000mi on it!
Not that it will make you feel any better, but I spent the weekend replacing control arms on my daughter’s 2005 Mustang and both tie rod ends.
Those ball joints and tie rod ends had been replaced previously by me less than 25k miles ago and were gone already.
Those parts were also MOOG parts and the replacement control arms were also MOOG; in theory supposed to be the brand that lasts forever. My opinion is that the lifespan is due to road surfaces and environment.
The irritating part about the MOOG control arms is that the control arm tabs used for mounting the catatlytic converter heat shields were not drilled and tapped as per the originals. This led to tapping 2 existing holes and drilling/tapping 4 more to keep the shields in place.
The bean counters must have spotted another way to cut production costs and save money on machine tooling…
@ok4450, I’m thinking that it’s more than just bean counting on the machining of such things. The auto parts market is so flooded with dirt cheap parts now (many of which are off-brand and I don’t trust them) that it seems brands like Moog are moving toward cutting quality to drop prices.
I recently heard that Moog is, for instance, dropping its problem-solver series - or perhaps at least some of it, and coming out with a new R-series. Well, as I understand it, the R-series is lower end stuff. Their stuff is probably more and more sourced from the same manufacturers supplying the low end parts for mass AP retailers. I did pause recently when I bought a Moog hub/bearing assy with the “Made in China” label. Then I’m left to wonder if the house brand where I was and the Moog are the same part in different boxes. I hope not…I spent the extra for the Moog. But only time will tell if I’m replacing it again in 25K
Those MOOG parts (both originals and current) were priced about 3-4 times higher than the store brands so if they’re cutting quality they’re sure not cutting prices.
I’m also currently going through the same thing on my Lincoln. The MOOG lower ball joints are loose after 25k miles and right side upper control arm is gone again. I just replaced the left side upper arm (again) a few months ago.
The parts are lifetime guarantee but the time spent rehashing the same problem is a bit tiresome.
Moog is following suit and is now offering “Quick Steer” chassis parts. Usually about half the price.
You’re not alone @ok4450 and @cigroller. I too have had less faith in Moog the past few years. Seeing cars that I service regularly, OE ball joints lasted 100K miles, replaced with Moog and 50K later worn out. But the prices are still up there. Last week I needed ball joints for a Ranger. Motorcraft was $44, Moog was $38, and “house brand” was $16. I’m almost tempted to try a set of house brand on something, because I’ve had such bad luck with Moog.
I haven’t heard of the Quick Steer chassis parts. The MOOGs around here come in the usual blue/yellow boxes.
I’m about to do the right side upper arm on my Lincoln (again) and will not be using MOOG; much like the left side that I did not too long ago. (second time on that one also)
The factory arms and most of the replacement arms seem to be somewhat small in both the arm construction and size of the ball joint in the arm. I’ve always thought of them as too dainty for a heavy car.
That left side I replaced recently was a new type AutoZone Duralast brand and the construction was much more heavy duty than the originals or most replacements arms
The circumference of the metal on the arms is double in size and the ball joints are about twice as large as the originals.
I’ve also found a problem with the Lincoln strut rod (torque rod to some) MOOG bushing kits. The things seemed to be loosening up and causing all kinds of grief. I discovered that the metal sleeves that fit inside the bushings were about an 1/8" longer than factory and that did not allow the bushings to snug up on the control arms or subframe.
I shaved all of them off on the lathe but still, someone should not have to resort to altering brand name parts to fit.
