“This generation of Hondas have ball joints that seem to wear out more quickly. The easiest and cheapest fix is to replace the lower control arm (something I have done on my 99 Accord already) and get an alignment”
True, but unless I’m not remembering correctly on this Civic the lower ball joint mounts in the steering knuckle and not in the control arm. That’s why I was wondering why ball joint replacement was recommended.
“I called around and got multiple quotes ranging from $827 to $544. This seems like a really big spread. Are the low quotes not covering everything the higher quotes do? Are the high quotes trying to take advantage of me?”
When you call around, you’re being given estimates. A quote is a written, detailed list of what will be done and what it will cost. You sign and then they more or less have to stick to that agreement unless there is a clause to the contrary. Nobody can do that over the phone without even looking at the car. They’re estimating the price based on your description of the required work.
Some shops will err on the side of caution and give you worst case scenario pricing. Others may be being overly optimistic to get you in the door and then spring the bad news once it’s on the rack. One shop may do more business and be getting their parts cheaper. Just some examples for thought, there are far too many variables to be definitive.
The only thing I would use the phone estimates for is to decide which shops I was going to go in and have them look at it in person. I would discard the two price extremes and see those in the middle.
Then, as mentioned, do not tell them what to replace, describe the symptoms and let them tell you what is required to fix it. Too many stories of people saying- replace my {parts} only to hear, we replaced the {parts you requested} and found you also needed these {parts actually causing the problem}…
@keith: you may be correct that the better method would be to take my car around to have it assessed at multiple places. however, i’m finding it challenging to get together enough cash to pay for the control arm replacement. i don’t have an extra couple hundred dollars to spend to find out that i do indeed need the lower control arms replaced.
i think what i have settled on is taking it to a local shop that gave me a lower estimate and ask them to look into the noise. i probably won’t be able to schedule this until next week, but i’ll let you know what they say.
@db4690: a friend’s family replaced the struts, not a garage, so all that was replaced were the struts. i don’t think i can get in there to take a picture and i’m not sure i’d know what to focus on if i could.
@asemaster: i believe the ball joint was included in the whole unit. they did not say it needed replaced, but would replace it as part of the whole setup.
one of the garages told me something similar to what @bloody_knuckles said about the joints wearing out quickly. they had one of the lower quotes.
one garage asked if their price was high or low. when i said low, they asked what the lowest quote was i had then said they’d do it for that much. i’m not sure if that’s the way to get business…
Heads up . . . I don’t think the new control arm comes with a ball joint
I believe you buy the ball joint separately
Well that was why I asked. The lower ball joint doesn’t really have much to do with replacing the lower control arm. The lower ball joint is pressed into the steering knuckle, not the control arm. Replacing the ball joint adds the cost of parts and additional labor to the job. If it’s not worn or loose I can’t see replacing it.
klu, I’m afraid you have missed my point. I am not trying to get you to spend more money, I am trying to save you money, I don’t think your control arms, control arm bushings or your lower ball joints are bad. I think you are wasting money having it done, but I can’t see them from here. It’s just that the car is too new and doesn’t have enough miles on it to have worn those parts down yet.
You say you have a clunk or something? Neither ball joints or control arm bushings cause a clunk when they go bad. Here is something you could do with a friend. Set the hand brake and chock the rear wheels. With the engine idling, lay down in front of your car and have a trusted friend, preferably one you owe money too, move the steering wheel rapidly back and forth about a quarter turn to each side.
If the bushings are bad, you will see the control arm move up and down or in and out as the wheel is turned. Look at where the control arm is attached to the frame of the car. Then check the other end and see if the control arm and the steering knuckle are sliding back and forth. The steering knuckle should be turning smoothly. If there is no unusual movement in the control arm at either end, save yourself $544+.
While you are down there, look at the tie rod ends and see if they are moving independently. The top and bottom of the tie rod ends should move together, if you see slippage between the tie rod end and the steering knuckle, then those should be replaced.
If you hear any knocking or clunking, try to find the source of the noise. If you don’t hear the clunking, then shut down the engine and push up and down on each corner of the car. If you hear the clunking then, it could be the sway bar links or bushings or the upper strut mounts. Unless you put quick struts in, I doubt you replaced the upper mounts.
Find a mechanic who knows how to troubleshoot issues and not make guesses.
I hope you didn’t pay for that diagnosis.
“Neither ball joints or control arm bushings cause a clunk when they go bad.”
??? What kind of noise do you hear when these things wear out? Clunk is how I describe it, unless it’s a squeak, rubbing, rattle or grinding sound.
No one can know what’s worn out without seeing the car, and on a 12 year old car I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see worn joints and bushings. I have to assume that the diagnosis was correct and the OP was just asking about pricing.
Don’t hear any noise with either of those. Control arm bushings are captive so even if the rubber cracks, it isn’t going anywhere. I have never heard a ball joint make any noise either until it falls out. If they are dry enough, maybe they squeak but I’ve never seen one that dry, but I have seen them worn out.
On a 12 year old Honda, I would be very surprised to see them worn out.
I have a noisy/worn lower ball joint on my own car, 2006 Lincoln. Makes a pop or clunk going up a driveway or sometimes just turning the wheel while parking. I can reproduce the noise on the hoist with a big pair of Channelocks. I regularly see Accord lower ball joints worn at 10 years old, noisy or not. Ford vans, Dodge pickups usually make noise when the lower joints starts to get play. True, ball joints aren’t first on the list for a clunk but it’s not uncommon.
Control arm bushings make a clunk when they’re bad enough that the center shaft or bolt starts to rattle around.
If he tries my tests, he will know won’t he?
I’ve heard clunks out of ball joints, control arm bushings, strut mounts, and even what I call strut rod bushings although they’re sometimes referred to as torque rods. The rod that braces a control arm to the subframe on cars that do not have triangular or A-shaped control arms basically.
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Clunks have even been heard from tie rods and tie rod ends if worn badly enough.
I had a tie rod joint that came apart on me and never made a sound. I had just bought the car and driven the vehicle 150 miles at highway speeds to get it home. I jacked it up that after noon to inspect it and the tie rod ball fell out of the joint.
Control arm bushings fail. I have replaced hundereds of failed bushings, some under factory warranty.
The rear bushing is different than the bushings of the 1970’s, they are designed to absorb impacts. Failure of these bushings is typical after ten years.
I did just replace the control arms in a Neon due to bad bushings. One of them looked like the pics posted by Nevada_545 - the old bushing core just popped right out when I removed the arm. One of the ball joints was also basically gone (torn boot, corrosion, very loose stud). On these the bushings and ball joints can be pressed in and out but I decided it would be easier to just do the whole arm as new ones come with the bushings and joints installed and I found a good deal on a Moog set.
Anyway, before I did it something was clunking, mostly noticeable at lower speed bumpiness. Now there is no more clunk. So the ball joint and/or control arm was clunking.
I’ve shaken wheels by hand with a car on the lift and gotten various components to clunk. There’s no reason to think that a worn part won’t clunk with the car weight and force applied as it moves down the road.
The failed bushing picture provided by Nevada_545 looks like the ones suffered by various models of Mitsubishis on their rear control arms. Some of those particular control arms are not available in the aftermarket and necessitate buying the entire arm from the dealer as bushings are not available either.
So are you guys saying that he should replace the lower control arms without even checking to see if they are bad or getting a second opinion? And if that doesn’t correct his problem, then what should he do, throw more parts and money at it until someday it is fixed?
When did Mitsubishi start using independent rear suspensions? Cig, the old bushing core was still in place until you removed the control arm so it was held captive, was it not? So it still had rubber between the metal parts.
@keith, I haven’t seen anyone saying the guy should throw any parts at any of it. About 3 pages ago I told him he needs a local shop that specializes in suspension/alignment work to figure it out and give him the straight scoop. So I don’t know how you got to parts throwing.
Yes - the rubber was still in there - with the metal no longer attached so the arm itself was mobile. Bad ball joints and bushings make for clunks keith. I have no idea if the clunks that I HAD were from that bushing. What I know is that I had a bad ball joint on one side and bad control arm bushing on the other. And it clunked over bumps. Now it doesn’t. That’s all I can say about it
klu, please keep us up to date on what you do and what the outcome is. Inquiring minds want to know.