Is there a way to make a mark on a vehicle paint job and not be permanent?

Maintenance/Repairs
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61

Good points! But dealers are not stupid people are they? If they had a vehicle damaged while transport they would go to the shipper for damages. I imagine the shipper will be paying the damages if they want to keep hauling cars. What do you suppose the dealer would bill for the damages. I’m thinking enough to pay for the repairs correctly done.

Were the repairs correctly done? NO, they were not done in a skilled workmans level or standard. What happened to the money that wasn’t spent fixing the problem correctly? It probably into the Dealer’s pocket if the scenario is what is posted. Who got shafted. For this case, me, the buyer.

If dealers shaft buyers does that hurt the brand. It depends. If the consumers just accept like you think they should, then no. But if we say, you know, this isn’t fair. I’m not going to just lie down and take it. When enough consumers vote with their feet and pocket books then, and only then will the brand start changing their tactics.

Look at the American car industry. It is in shambles! If consumers had been harder nosed years ago and unfortunately I wasn’t one of them for a lot of years. Stood up and said I’m not accepting what the American industry is putting out for quality. The American car industry would have corrected itself before it came to the state that it currently in with most of them needing bail outs. What happened is there was this ‘lemming mentality’ of lots of folks. Buy American, buy American it’s un-American if you don’t. Some folks were smarter sooner and shifted to quality purchase of foreign brands. Lots of us stayed on the band wagon longer and purchased cars where the quality was less or it was obvious the manufacturers weren’t listening to consumers.

Then all of a sudden Americans wake up in mass. Huge shift away from American manufacturers to foreign quality.

Story about an acquaintance of mine. They were involved several accidents where they were rear ended. Womens’ backs are weaker then mens’, not discriminatory just a fact of biology. Wife has serious issues of discomfort in vehicles. Good lumbar support in vehicle seats goes a long way. They looked and looked at American brands. For several car purchase cycles (by cycles I mean buy car and then replace several years later). American brands have very little if any lumbar support … still. The Japanese brand apparently do very well with lumbar support and have been for few decades.

We the consumers will make a difference if we don’t just accept. If we do then things will happen where manufacturers will put out what they want not what we want.

62

Evidence of the care you’ve given the vehicle? I thought you didn’t wax it. Once the judge finds that out, the case will be over.

63

Actually evidenced by what the rest of the exterior looks like.

We have waxed it. I have run the vehicle through hot wax washes about 4 times a year since we bought it. Just because I may not follow what you practice as far as exterior maintenance. Doesn’t mean my treatment was negligent. That if you read through the comments I have repeatedly stated that the body outside of these spots looks like it just came out of the showroom. That is with the exception of some minor chipping and the recent ding.

It is amazing how some folks have been so programmed to accept less then forthright treatment by the corporate world and even try to defend it, or, fight those folks who want are starting to revolt against lousy customer care. It is absolutely amazing.

64

So your argument is that since most of the clear coat withstood not being properly waxed, there was something wrong with the part of the car that didn’t withstand not being properly waxed? This could just as easily be a testament to the quality of the clear coat that withstood your neglect. You are tilting at windmills.

This isn’t about accepting poor treatment from a corporation. If anything, this appears to be an example of someone in a litigious society who wants someone to blame for his problems, and who is willing to go through great effort to displace the blame and ignore personal responsibility to properly care for the paint job.

Maybe you can get Judge Judy to take the case. I would love to see how it plays out. In any case, make sure you let us know how it turns out. You seem to be losing in the court of public opinion here.

65

This is just a guess, but here is the way I think a court would handle your case. If you convince the court that the spots on your car were caused by a poor repair job, then the court will then determine how much the value of the car, at the present time, has been diminished by these spots. My guess is that the court won’t award $2500 to repair the panels, but will ask an appraiser to estimate the present value of the car as it stands and the present value of the car if the spots are repaired. I don’t think that this difference will be $2500, but more in the neighborhood of $200-$300, the amount it would take to buff out the spots.

Your Toyota is 5-6 years old. The car has depreciated from the $25,000 you initially paid for the car and let’s say it is now has a wholesale book value of $12,000. I really don’t think that these spots will take the value down to $9500. Used Toyota minivans are popular cars and dealers would like to have one to resell. The dealer will probably reason that I can put a couple of hundred into making it look good and turn a good profit. The dealer won’t put $2500 into refinishing the panel.

If your minivan was in its first year and these spots showed up, the court might award the amount to refinish the panel, because the spots diminshed the value by that much. However, after 5 years, the value of the car hasn’t been diminished as greatly by the spots. One expects some wear and tear on a car.

Putting it another way, let’s suppose that I am in the market for a used Toyota minivan. Yours is for sale. I don’t think I could get the seller to knock off $2500 because of these spots. I would be happy to bargain him down $500.

66

Whitey, you have been so programmed to be accepting of corporate crude that you try to make all sorts of excuses.

The transporter would be foolish to accept a car from a factory that had been damaged and not corrected. The dealer would be foolish to accept a car from the transporter that was damaged without some compensation to fix the repair.

The damage could have been done at the first dealer yes. But it should have been fixed to a skilled craftsman standard which it wasn’t. So the first dealer could be the egregious party. The vehicle could have been damaged as it was being driven down from to the second dealer. Not sure how those transport arrangements work as far as liability but there would undoubtedly be insurance or self insurance. So maybe the repair was done at the dealer that I purchased it from and it was not done in a skilled craftsman standard. But who helps the consumer? Let’s say defect came up prior to the end of the warranty. Fair for the dealership to say to the consumer, “Hey we didn’t do it. You need to talk to the dealer we bought it from.” Hopefully you are saying no, if that happens, Toyota should step in. But you are probably saying, “Hand Wax, hand wax, hand wax.” Which is your prerogative.

So let’s modify it. Let’s say the vehicle was damaged more. That something had to be hammered out. That bondo applied, paint, and clear coat but to save bucks no corrosion resistance. You live in a place with lots of salt in the environment. By the ocean or where there is are frequent snows and lots of salt is spread. The body panel starts rusting through during warranty. Now Whitey, by your reasoning, Toyota would be “stupid to assume responsibility for the damage.” Yet in the warranty that is specifically covered.

Now the defect should have been disclosed from the time that it occurred. To give me the customer the information to decide how I wanted to proceed. There was no disclosure of that fact. Now who to blame. Well I know two things for sure. That this happened prior to us buying the vehicle. Second of all the vehicle was sold to us as new. Third of all it is a Toyota.

Let’s take a different tack on this. Let’s say that during the warranty period a car is taken in for a repair. That the mechanic screws up. Lets say that they strip the bolt hole in the oil pan while replacing the oil plug to refill the car with oil. The dealership says, nah we didn’t do it man. You reply, wait a minute here. You are the only folks that work on this vehicle. The dealership says prove it. The warranty I’m sure excludes things that damages that are done with repairs outside the Toyota franchises.

Now what do you have. Hopefully you have a manufacturer who wants to protect their brand. Now what would you do in this case?

But by the reasoning you have used. The manufacturer doesn’t need to do anything. It’s your tough luck.

Now let’s go a little further. Suppose the vehicle is now off warranty. Same case the plug hole gets stripped. Dealership says I didn’t do it. Must have happened while you were having it serviced some place else. You state wait a minute you guys have done all the work. They say, prove it. Now what would you do?

Let me guess. You will either say that after the car gets off warranty you would do all the work yourself. Maybe, you mentally think, I must have lent my car to someone that I don’t remember. When they borrowed the car and probably took it to another shop where the drain plug was put in crossed threaded.

67

It is a testament that the repair wasn’t done to the standards of the manufactured vehicle!

I didn’t neglect the clear coat. I washed the car monthly. I hot waxed it about 4 times a year. You and some others might think that isn’t enough. But guess what it’s good enough for the clear coat that is on it. Because as I have repeatedly said. The vehicle with the exception of these poorly repaired spots, the recent ding, and some minor chipping looks like it came out of the show room.

Regarding not accepting responsibility. Hmmm think about this. A repair was not done according to a skilled craftsman style. It wasn’t disclosed by whoever did it. Who didn’t take responsibility?

You think I’m losing the court of public opinion here? Seriously? I think with the exception of you and Whitey, most of the other folks that have posted have dropped out and I think that they think that little consumer doesn’t stand a chance with corporation.

I have to admit though how thoroughly surprised I am about how well the programming has worked in regards to people accepting unfair business practices.

Fact. Damage was done prior to us purchasing vehicle as new but disclosed as Dealer trade.

Fact. We have had no repair work done on vehicle.

Fact. 4 long time body repair men including the manager at the dealership where we purchased the vehicle from say the spots that are showing up are prior damage.

Fact. Since these are showing up as spots. That means the repair of prior damage was not done in a skilled craftsman manner or standard. That being that the complete panel was refinished as opposed to spots.

Fact. There was no disclosure to us the buyers of the damage and repair. For us to make a determination of how we wanted to proceed.

What did I do wrong here? I washed the vehicle and hot waxed it. It was plenty sufficient for the factory part of the job.

What did they do wrong? Let’s see. 1) They didn’t repair the vehicle in a skilled craftsman manner or standard. 2) Since they didn’t do it in a skilled craftsman manner to match the endurance quality of the factory paint, my contention is that they should have disclosed it, which they didn’t.

68

Don’t know about your assessment. I mean if someone runs into my vehicle which you are showing with a wholesale value of $12,000. Let’s say the estimate to repair is $5,000. Does the judge come up with a value of what the car might sell for without the work being done and make a judgment based on difference between that and wholesale value?

Regarding small claims. I’m still holding out hope that Toyota says to itself. Hey one of our dealers wasn’t acting fairly with one of our owners. One of these dealerships screwed up. They didn’t repair the damage correctly and they didn’t disclose to the customer that there was damage that had been repaired. We don’t know which dealer it was. But this isn’t the way we do business.

69

A friend of mine bought a brand new Mercury Grand Marquis. Before the car had traveled 1000 miles, someone pulled out in front of him and the car was badly wrecked. The other party was at fault, so the third party insurance was responsible. My friend wanted a new replacement car–the insurance company was only willing to fix the car that was wrecked. My friend argued that a Carfax report would show that the car had been in an accident and therefore the value of the car wsa greatly diminished. The insurance company claimed that its responsibility ended with putting the car in the condition it was before the accident. I believe that the insurance company won.

Now let’s say that your car is for sale and I am interested in buying it. I find a few dull spots in the finish. I would chalk it up as a minor paint problem and look at the condition of the rest of the car. On the other hand, suppose that the panel has been repainted and I detect this (paint doesn’t quite match, overspray, etc). I’ll decide that the car has been in an accident and walk away. My first wife’s father was visiting us and found a four year old 1965 Mercury that was in great shape except that the paint was worn through on the top of the left fender. He reasoned that someone had spilled a coke and it ate away at the paint. The dealer had just taken the car in on trade–it had 20,000 miles. The dealer was happy to let the car go at a low price and he avoided the repair. The dealer himself worried that the paint repair might not match and a potential purchaser might think the car had been in a bad accident.

Toyota may offer to settle by buying the car from you at present book value. They will buff out the paint, resell the car, and not lose. On the other hand, you might not be able to find a 2004 Toyota Sienna with as low mileage as your car has. Now if you are ready to buy a new car, that is great for you. However, if you intend to keep your vehicle, you have lost. I’m not saying that this is fair, but if Toyota is pushed, this may be the solution that is offered to you.

70

Very good points! Last night and this morning I was pondering all the feedback that was provided here in this forum. Especially the exchanges between you and I. It dawned on me that if it was taken to small claims court. I would probably prevail. However, remembering back to Business Law classes we were taught the courts want to mitigate damages but keep the cost down. That is with the exception of punitive damages and this isn’t in that ball park. But the award would be most likely along the lines of what other people have suggested I have done, that is to for the panels to be buffed, polished, and covered with some type of coating. Something a little more substantial then wax. That would provide another 3-1/2 years of protection. But as you and others have pointed out the amount will to do something along those lines is minimal.

But should Toyota not repair in a skilled craftsman manner and standard the panels damaged before I purchased this vehicle new. Seeing the programming some people who have posted on this thread have accepted hook, line, and sinker regarding accepting corporate mistreatment and unethical methods to cover tbeir hides. This being exhibited by whichever Dealership was responsible for not having the damage repaired correctly. I am entitled and actually it seems a moral duty to educate other people of what can happen. I mean, I am a guy with a lifetime of living experiences and have never ever run into this problem or expected to run into a problem of this nature.

So should Toyota or the dealership not correct the problem. I will be educating folks as to what has happened so they will hopefully avoid the same experience when buying a new vehicle. Naturally I will be pointing out that it was Toyota that the problem was with. Hopefully it was the local dealership that did the repair. Because since they are the closest Toyota dealership they will be getting the brunt of a Toyota Sienna van running around with these spots circled and a sign saying “Ask me about my new Toyota buying experience” painted on the sides. That is until I have a web address and page devoted to this situation. Then I will be printing up business cards so I can pass those out to reference the web page. Then maybe I will try my hand at getting family and friends together to write a song about the experience and posting it on YouTube. Something along the lines of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

But I’m still hopeful in the Toyota image that I had when I purchased this vehicle that they will realize how a customer was mistreated and will step in and correct the problem.

If we the consumers do not protect our interests. Business will be working to get more and more. That is the purpose of business to make more and more money. Seem to remember in the distant past that businesses did that by better and better products and customer service. But somewhere that paradigm has appeared to change and to cut corners and most minimal customer service if any.

I thank you for your taking the time to come back and make repeated responses.

Have a Great Day,
Jim

p.s. guess I will start giving some thought to a web address. Maybe something like “WatchOutWhenBuyingNewCars.com”

71

“Write” With Tape.

Vinyl tapes should peel off when warmed by the sun. Boat registration letters are vinyl. Wal-Mart sells vinyl mailbox letters that come in alphabet sets. A sign shop can make you some stick-on words/phrases. Auto pin-striping tape is removable. How about electrical tape?

Masking tape, the blue stuff, is made to be more easily removed after several days.

You can experiment in an inconspicuous area or on an old beater car before using tapes/letters on your car.

You could just outline the spots with tape and put signs in the windows. Rolls of magnetic tape could be used in place of sticky tape.

CSA

72

I just had my weekly conversation with my brother who is an attorney. If, at some point, you showed the spots to the Toyota dealer and the dealer’s body shop buffed out the spots without charge to you, then Toyota admitted that there was a problem. You could then argue that the repair was not satisfactory and Toyota needs to make it right. He did state that it is hard to know how a judge will react.

I know that auto manufacturers guarantee the car bodies from rust out for a period of time. However, there doesn’t seem to be any paint guarantee. Paintwork is expensive. My department chair has a black Neon and the paint is stripping off the top. This shouldn’t have happened, in my opinion. My first car was a 1947 Pontiac that I bought in 1961 for $75. It had the original paint. I used rubbing compound and buffed it out and it looked like it came out of the showroom. Some idiot came by and offered me $150 for the car. A second idiot, me, didn’t take the offer. I could have worked my way up to a mechanically better car.

73

Fact. Damage was done prior to us purchasing vehicle as new but disclosed as Dealer trade.

If this is a fact, it has yet to be proven. Even though it is based on professional opinions, they are still opinions.

74

Thread is long and I have not been following,has it been explained why Yimmie has a problem with Toyota itself and not the selling Dealer?

75

From what I have read, the OP believes that Toyota should take responsibility for the actions of their dealers.

76

Does anybody on the Forum support the OP?

77

Count me as one of those who believes that the OP needs to find something else to occupy his time.

Daily, there are soldiers dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, there are cancer patients breathing their last breaths, children in Third World countries are slowly starving, thousands of people in our own nation have lost either their retirement savings or their home–or both, and a huge number of other true tragedies are being played out constantly. In the face of all of these genuine tragedies, the OP, whom I am sure is a very nice man, is taking the absolutely unproveable case of who is responsible for the condition of his 5 year old vehicle’s paint, trying to turn it into the crime of the century, and is spending a huge amount of time attempting to convert us to his cause.

Despite his intense efforts in this forum, he has failed to convince most of us about the worthiness of his position. We have given him every argument in the book as to why he will not prevail, and he rejects all of our arguments. I believe that the legal principle that I stated earlier–Laches–is the best example of why he would not be able to win his case, either out-of-court, or in a court of law.

Additionally, in addition to having to prove that this damage took place prior to purchase, the OP would also have to prove that this damage did not occur while he was in possession of the vehicle. And–how does one prove that something did not occur? You could not prove it simply with the absence of accident reports, police reports, or insurance claims because body damage could have taken place in other ways, and the OP could have simply had it repaired (badly) on his own dime. Or, at least that would be a very good argument that “the other side” could present. And, of course, precisely who is “the other side”?

The OP has apparently not convinced the majority of us about the worthiness of his case. And yet he persists.

At this point, I have to ask the OP:
Who are you trying to convince–us, or yourself?

78

Yes I have explained why I have problem with Toyota itself. Because this could fall into the slot of dealer I purchased it from, blaming poor quality repair on previous dealer and saying he didn’t know. Toyota who probably maintains some standards of practice for it dealerships would be the entity to step in, and make sure the matter was resolved in an equitable manner.

Good question though. Allows me to express myself on this issue. I thank you for taking the time to respond.

Have a Great Day,
Jim

79

Fact. Damage was done prior to us purchasing vehicle as new but disclosed as Dealer trade…

Fact. 4 long time body repair men including the manager at the dealership where we purchased the vehicle from say the spots that are showing up are prior damage.

Fact. Since these are showing up as spots. That means the repair of prior damage was not done in a skilled craftsman manner or standard. That being that the complete panel was refinished as opposed to spots.

You seem to be confusing fact and opinion.

The idea that there was prior damage is an opinion. You could have 100 concurring opinions, and it still wouldn’t be a fact. Stating it again and again doesn’t make it factual either. All of the above items are either opinions or beliefs.

80

VDCdriver you said, “is taking the absolutely unproveable case of who is responsible for the condition of his 5 year old vehicle’s paint.” Actually it is provable if you have read the thread. I would be willing to swear in court under penalty of perjury that no repairs have been done since I’ve owned the vehicle which was sold to me as new. I have also what 4 highly body shop have told me including the current body shop manager of the franchise that I bought it from confirm that these marks are repairs of prior damage and that they were don’t in a manner consistent with what a skilled craftsmens’ work or standard. So I think that satisfys that portion of things.

Regarding crime of the century. That is your interpretation. I have responded individually to each comment, if you had bothered to check.

VDCdriver you said, “I believe that the legal principle that I stated earlier–Laches–is the best example of why he would not be able to win his case, either out-of-court, or in a court of law.” I am sorry I obviously hurt your feelings about not accepting the concept of Lachesin this case. That concept as you pointed out deals with handling problems promptly. Apparently you didn’t read my response to your comment when you brought that up. Where I posted that I notified the dealer that I purchased it from the very same day that I was advised what the problem was. As a matter of fact in a little more detail. I was at the dealership about probably 2 hours later.

If you had read just 5 post up from your last post you would have read where I said I wouldn’t be taking this to court.

VDCdriver returning once again to your post where you said, “trying to turn it into the crime of the century.” That is your terminology. This is a case where a dealer acted unethically. It happens. We as consumers can choose to accept this treatment, which, emboldens the dealers to perform the behavior again and again. Or we can fight. Which will make them think twice about doing it again.

VDCdriver you posted, “Who are you trying to convince–us, or yourself?” You and every other person who accepts this type of treatment. The folks who don’t fight back. The ones who are part of the reason that this stuff happens.

VDCdriver you posted, “He has apparently not convinced the majority of us in the worthiness of his case.” I think I recall reading something like 3 folks including yourself are strongly on Toyota’s side. There are 70 some post. I think I have responded to all of them. That means there were 35 postings other then mine. Several folks have responded multiple times. Whitey posted a bunch lets say 7 or 8. You’ve posted a few times, lets say 3, few other folks at two or three post each. Let’s say 20 postings after the multiple posts. So what 3 absolutely against my position 20 unknown. Seems like I might have swayed some folks or they agree with me.

VDCdriver you said, "Count me as one of those who believes that the OP needs to find something else to occupy his time. " I’m sorry you are so concerned about what I do with my time. After all it is my life. I posted a question about looking for something to temporarily mark my vehicle. I knew folks would want to know why I wanted to know. I responded to each post. Regarding fighting this matter. As I mentioned earlier. Letting this type of stuff go emboldens the practice more. I don’t know how old you are. But for example back in the 50’s & 60’s taking passenger flights was an experience people looked forward to. Flights ran much closer to schedule. Customer service was fantastic. Fast forward to today where folks get caught on a plane on the tarmac for 6 hours and longer. They aren’t taxied back to the terminal to wait in more comfort because that cost additional money to the airline. Take another look at the airline industry. Do you know anybody who has had their luggage lost, broken, or broken into? A canadian just made a video about his experience about his guitar and trying to get it taken care of: Since July 6th of yes, 2009 which is what 42 days it has gotten almost five (5) million views. Take some time to look at people’s responses. The link is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

Look at the American car industry. It’s in shambles. Chrysler and GM needed temporary bailouts. Hummer, Saturn, Buick are going by the wayside or getting sold. Chrysler is I don’t know where. Go back and look at Consumer Report magazine regarding car ratings for past several decades and how the American car manufacturers products were declining in quality reviews. How the American car industry was only interested in it’s profit and losing touch with reality. Gas shortages did the American car industry respond …NO they didn’t. They just kept pumping out SUV’s. Gas gusslers. They fought tooth and nail against fuel mileage standards. Did the Consumers oppose that action. Some did and started buying Japanese makes. Still American Car industry continued on with it’s not listening. Just focused on making money. Then all of a sudden the bottom drops out. Who loses big time. The American car industry and even more so, their line workers. Market for American cars drops like a rock. Japanese lose sees some sales fall off but not like the Americans.

So VDCdriver. You may choose to be apathetic about matters. But I choose not to be.