I would have to agree with the OP. some carmakers tend to slack off on occasion, and
should stand behind there car. this one is going to be tough to convince toyota though. you could try getting something in writing from the 4 bodyshops, or ask toyota to split the cost, say %50-%75. its worth a shot.
I am not “on Toyota’s side”, as all veterans of this board would probably know. I was successful in getting satisfaction from Toyota under a Lemon Law case a few months ago, so–believe me–I am not on their side.
I am on the side of being rational, and I am on the side of pressing a case that is proveable. Yours is simply not proveable. I believe that you are wasting your time, but if this “floats your boat”, then go to it.
This issue makes me wonder, in the 5 years you have owned this vehicle, have you ever taken a vacation where someone house sat for you and had access to your vehicle? Have you loaned the car to anybody? How do you know it wasn’t vandalized by some kid in the middle of the night? How do you know it wasn’t hit by wayward fireworks on 4th of July weekend one year? Has the car been in your possession and been garage kept the whole time you owned it?
Unless you can demonstrate a complete chain of custody and you can prove the car has not been exposed to any possible sources of damage, this is a losing battle.
You now seem to be pretty sure a dealership is responsible, but you can’t determine which one, and you can’t prove it. Yet you want to go after the manufacturer?
The condition of the clear coat on the rest of the van doesn’t prove anything. The professional opinions of 4 body shop employees isn’t necessarily proof either. What you are going to need is video security tape footage from the last 5 years showing the van was garage kept, proof of “chain of custody,” showing that in no time during the last 5 years was the van out of your care long enough to be damaged and repaired, receipts from every wash and wax (which will probably hurt more than it helps), and a lot of luck.
You seem to be asking us to take a lot on faith. While it is true a lot of religious people accept their faith as factual, it doesn’t work that way for non-religious matters.
Yimmie what you have just posted is incomprehensible “fall into the slot of dealer I purchased from” what the??? is this a typo?
You need to get out of “probably maintains” and reasearch just what type of relationship Toyota has with Toyota franchises.
Toyota itself is not going to get involved with a body repair a franchise made,not in a thousand years, unless the Dealer tried to claim manufactures warranty on a paint repair you claim the Dealer made.
And then the only involvement they would have is to deny the Dealers claim,which the Dealer would never make.
If you want to keep posting and people want to keep answering well thats just fine,no harm,it is only the internet.
Provable or not that is a moot point because I’ve already decided not to go to small claims court.
Regarding floating my boat. I am very much a believer that the consumer deserves to be treated honestly and fairly. That if cases where this hasn’t happened are left to just slide it emboldens the perpetrators do it again.
This is not a good analogy as a matter of fact it is probably terrible. But suppose police practiced not arresting anyone who robbed someone else. Do you suppose robberies would climb?
Oldschool, you can count my vote a “no.”
Won’t Toyota’s representatives have a right to cross examine the 4 body shop employees? It won’t be difficult to have the affidavits thrown out if you can’t produce the people who wrote them. Affidavits are no good if you can’t back them up with a live witness.
Jim, before you write on your vehicle and go driving around, make sure you put a lawyer on retainer. Whoever you target, whether it be Toyota or a local dealership, can come after you for libel. Then you might be forced to prove your unprovable case.
I share your belief that the customer deserves to be treated honestly and fairly. In fact, if you had a provable case, I would be one of the first to say so.
That sounds like a good idea from my standpoint maybe financially. But I’m going to hold out for the entire repair being done correctly. Because if I settled for something less then I wouldn’t feel justified in educating folks as to what can happen and warn them.
Internet searches have yielded a vast number of complaints about car manufacturers or dealerships not responding to customer service problems adequately. Some are undoubtedly sour apples. Some our legitimate such as cases of folks winning under the lemon law.
Like I have said before. In all my years on this planet I never would have considered this possibility. So if it’s not taken care of totally and solely by Toyota or their dealership. Then I will be educating based on this experience and with these entities.
Even if Toyota does take care of the matter. I will still be educating people to be very wary when they purchase new cars and how damage can be hidden. Although I will not be citing brands. I think most folks are like me. They think when they purchase a new car it will be pristine. They depend on the thought that the car will give them the service based on the care they give it.
Now I will be warning folks that this is not necessarily the case.
Good thought Whitey. I appreciate your concern. I had already thought of that. Like I said I’m still holding out that an appropriate person in Toyota’s chain is going to realize that, “oops, this is a boo boo on our part and we are going to take care of the problem.” After all Toyota not so very long ago had a good customer service reputation.
But before I did anything about educating. I was going to get letters from an Auto Body shop about their opinions that this was a poor repair of prior damages.
I thank you for taking the time to respond.
Have a Great Day,
Jim
Moot point like I said. I won’t be going to court.
Hydrolover, don’t all checks come with your account number already on them? All checks come from the printer with your account number and routing number printed on the bottom of the front.
Toyota hopefully protects it’s brand or customer service would go in the pits.
What happens in this case. A car is shipped to a dealer. Instead of just cursory damage to exterior paint that a panel gets bent good and need to be pounded out. The outside is made pretty, the underside isn’t treated for corrosion resistance because it can’t be seen.
The car gets shipped in dealer trade to another dealer. Perhaps one along the ocean or in an area where a lot of salt is used because of snow. The vehicle starts rusting out after 4 years. Warranty on Toyota for rust through is 5 years.
Customer takes car to dealer for repair. Dealer does their thing. Discovers the prior damage.
Oldschool it is your contention, “Toyota itself is not going to get involved with a body repair a franchise made,not in a thousand years”
If Toyota doesn’t get involved and Dealer car was purchased from says not me, not me! What happens to the customer?
Like I have reiterated a bunch of times in this thread. We as consumers need to stand up for ourselves expect equitable treatment and if we don’t get it then fight for it. For if we don’t it gives positive reinforcement to business entities to continue unethical and declining treatment and customer service.
I am not involved in the crusade aspect of this issue. At this point in your life you should know that things are many times just not fair.
We have had people post with real problems like sparkplugs siezing when the customer followed the manufactures 100K replacement interval or transmission failure soon out of warranty. These people with real problems still must get creative in getting consideration from the manufacture. Your situation is so low on the scale of importance I would not think the lowest person on Toyotas staff would listen to you.
The damage to you car could have happened in the Dealers parking lot long after a perfect car was delivered by Toyota. Why should this be a issue concerning Toyota? There is no requirement for Toyota to step in when the Dealer bows out. Ok so when you recieve your customer satisfaction survey you beat down the Dealer,Dealer wont like it but it won’t motivate them to compensate you.
If you could get some kind of record that indicated the Dealer informed Toyota that one of the new cars it recieved had some body damage and the Dealer requested Toyota to pay for the repair a path may be established to Toyotas door but even then your case that the repair was not as good as a new car needs more support that the quotes from body shop personel.
No argument from me that, “people post with real problems like sparkplugs siezing when the customer followed the manufactures 100K replacement interval or transmission failure soon out of warranty,” are bigger issues then a vehicle doesn’t look as good as it should.
You have your opinion and I have mine, and, I concur with the above quote from your statement. That is the wonderful think about a free democracy. Some people think that donations of money should go to help folks starving or hurt by some monumental disaster in a foreign country, some folks think the money should go towards helping subsidize missionaries preaching a specific word or practice of faith, other folks think that money should be donated to help a local soup kitchen and folks that are homeless. Each to their own.
There are things that aren’t fair. You are absolutely right in that matter. What rings my bell if finding against unethical corporate behavior and cover-ups. Your thing is helping folks apparently with fighting a problem regarding suggested replacement intervals or transmissions that fail earlier then expected. You may be talented with car repairs and using your hands. Me not so much. I have folks with those talents in high esteem.
oldschool you said, "The damage to you car could have happened in the Dealers parking lot long after a perfect car was delivered by Toyota. Why should this be a issue concerning Toyota? There is no requirement for Toyota to step in when the Dealer bows out. Ok so when you recieve your customer satisfaction survey you beat down the Dealer,Dealer wont like it but it won’t motivate them to compensate you. " Let me ask you is ethically right for dealer to get away with it? Why, why are arguing against someone arguing for ethical treatment? That just doesn’t make sense from a consumers standpoint. Now if you are a dealership that is pulling this type of stuff then that makes sense, you arguing against it. But otherwise???
To me and I think a lot of people. It is working at making things better. To me if you just let bad behavior slide then it reinforces bad behavior.
Also to remind you. No one is forcing you to view this thread. Well I can’t see you but I’m assuming that no one is. But if someone is forcing you to view this threat that is really a person who needs something better to do.
How about educating people about this matter. Something along the lines of:
-When you buy a new car, it may not necessarily be as pristine if as it looks. There might have been some prior damage to you purchasing it as a new vehicle.
-Before signing the paperwork ask the car dealer franchise if any damage has been repaired on the vehicle. Don’t except an answer like, “we have no idea.” or some other indeterminate answer. Get a statement written statement on the Dealerships franchise letterhead, that the car has sustained no damage on the vehicle either during transport or while at the dealership."
-If the dealer does state that there was some damage. It doesn’t mean that it is necessarily a vehicle to walk away from. Once again in writing have the dealer detail the damage such as paint scuff, chipping, panel bent and which panel(s) on the car were damaged. The nature of the repair, such as they sanded and repainted the entire panel, treated with additional corrosion resistant material if that is applicable, and how long they will warranty the nature of the repair for. (Body shops in this area warranty their repairs for the life of the vehicle.) BUT get this all in writing and keep it.
-If the vehicle is what is known as a dealer trade. Be aware that this means that the vehicle was originally sold to another franchise or franchises before it made it to the current franchise. Dealer trades are for more then just to swap a car because of car colors or option packages. It might be because the Dealer who is trading the vehicle out wants to get rid of the vehicle because he knows something happened to the vehicle and he wants to get rid of it that dealer hopes to move the vehicle so that dealership doesn’t have to deal with it.
-If the dealership says the car is not a dealer trade. Then get that in writing also.
-If the dealership doesn’t want to put the above things in writing. Then you can decide if buying a new car from that dealership is really a good idea.
You know this may also be the case of mechanical issues. Back I think around 1970 a friend of mine bought a new American car. It was at the top of the heap as far as cool factor for that manufacturer Ordered that thing from the factory. I remember him waiting about, well it seemed like forever. Think it was probably 8 to 10 weeks. He drives the car out of the dealership and the engine froze about a block away or so. Car was of oil. Don’t know if it was the case of oil plug falling out, oil filter falling off, pan falling off, oil light disconnected. Anyhow the dealership wanted to fix it and return it to the guy. Well he was a big, kind of ugly dude that you wouldn’t want to meet in an alley even it was well lit. They ended up ordering a new car for him. Don’t have a clue what happened to the car that seized up. Do you suppose they junked the car? Probably not. Do you suppose they replaced the engine with a new one? Maybe they replaced the engine with a rebuilt one? Maybe they just replaced some parts on the engine that seized? Was that car sold as new again?
Maybe something should be gotten in writing regarding mechanical repairs prior to the car being sold. I have never before considered something being wrong with a car when first manfactured and before being sold to the first owner. But I’m learning
“Moot point like I said. I won’t be going to court.”
Did you just make that decision? I ask because only a few hours ago, you told us:
“I would be willing to swear in court under penalty of perjury that no repairs have been done since I’ve owned the vehicle which was sold to me as new.”
That surely sounded like you were going to press your case in a court of law, but I guess that I have misinterpreted your intentions from that statement.
Apparently you are instead going to engage in a negative PR campaign against the dealership, and that is your right, I suppose. But, as Whitey already advised, you should consult an attorney prior to that effort, just so you know where you stand, legally. Being sued for libel is probably something that you would want to avoid.
VDCdriver: Yes, I did post previously that I wouldn’t be taking it to small claims court. What is currently showing as reply on page 3 of this thread. That I made on 8/16/2009 at 1:20:30 pm in response to a post that Treidaq on 8/16/2009 at 12:32:06 pm made. You are coming very close to implying that I am a liar sir. That I do not appreciate.
In addition my campaign would be against Toyota if you bothered to read closely. Because I am not sure which Dealership in fact made these repairs poorly. I said that it would be unfortunate for my local dealership because naturally I would start closer to home.
Regarding your re-iteration of being sued for libel. I had already addressed the issue. In my response to Whitey just three post prior to your post I am responding to. For your reference and review you will find that post currently on this page it was made on 8/17/2009 at 10:02:14 AM. You probably should work harder on your reading comprehension skills.
You know VDCdriver why there are problems of this nature. Because it’s people like you that try to shout down and demoralize people who are trying to get quality and ethical treatment. The funny thing is I can’t for the life of me figure out why you would do that. Unless you are participating in the profits of the corporate entity that made money off this concealment. Either that or someone has so successfully trained you to fight against your best interest.
I can understand you not wanting to take the time to fight yourself. But to try to get someone else to stop. Especially someone who is trying to make things just a little bit better for the consumer. That just makes no sense at all.
You are coming very close to implying that I am a liar sir. That I do not appreciate.
Boy are you getting oversensitive. He clearly said “…I guess that I have misinterpreted your intentions from that statement”, which implies the misunderstanding was his, even though your intentions seem to shift with the wind. You can’t get much more diplomatic than that.
If anyone has implied anything derogatory, it is you. You have implied that several people are apathetic, unethical, or corporate shills, just because they don’t agree with your position. Most of us have overlooked such rude behavior, until now.
Oversensitive? No I don’t think so. I called it like I saw it. I had clearly posted it because I could site the when and where. And VDCdriver wrote: "ask because only a few hours ago, you told us: " Don’t know where you are from but around here that is bordering on calling someone a liar.
No where in any of the post have I called anyone unethical or implied such. I said to one person that if he was a dealership that did such things as covering up that is unenthical. Think most people would agreeA statement maybe two took such a strong postion for Toyota that I asked if they were employees of Toyota. You use the term Corporate Shill to inflame.
You stated that I implied that several people are apathetic. Apathetic accoring to the merriam-webster.com/dictionary. “1) Having little feeling or emotion; 2)having little or in interest or concern.” That seems to describe people are apathetic about this transaction. I don’t see that as an insult. I see that as a priority placement for things of importance in their lives.
If you don’t care my sentence structure and punctuation. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Most likely your correct that my sentence structure and punctuation is far from perfect. I’ve been out of school a very long time.
You Ron-man said in your post, “Please don’t insult our intelligence by suggesting you are taking on this crusade for our benefit. If anything you have said is a lie” Now you sir are bordering very close to calling me a liar. As a matter of fact I will be clicking on the abuse flag of your post. No where did I state I was doing this for all of society and not for me. The jest of the atmosphere that I have portrayed throughout this thread, is that I feel this was an unethical transaction at some level. Be it one dealer to another dealer then to me or some hybrid of that.
Regarding your statement, “The rest of us know how to pick our battles. We don’t need your help. We don’t want your help.” I’ll tell you what. This is a toughie. Because I’m not really sure how to exclude specific people in a campaign should that occur. So I’ll have to ask your help. For the next new car transactions you do for the rest of your life. Please tell the sales person you are working with that you are not concerned with any prior damage that might have happened to the vehicle before you have seen it. I deeply apologize for asking you to help in this manner and matter. If I think of something that would be easier for you to do I will be sure to post it.
There is power in numbers. I think Consumer Reports has done quite a service since it began in 1936. I’m certain that most manufacturers don’t like a poor review of their products in Consumer Reports. In the ratings of used cars, I believe that there is a category for paint and exterior trim. Consumer Union, that publishes Consumer Reports is financed by its subscribers. Look how many times Consumer Reports automobile reliability is cited on this bulletin board.
While I subscribe to Consumer Reports, there are times when I disagree with its opinions. However, it is a good starting point to begin making an informed decision about a purchase. In your case, if paint problems are frequent with Toyota owners, it will show up in the reliability ratings of used cars. A collective voice usually carries more weight than one lone voice.
I did once have a problem with a Toyota dealer’s service department just after we bought a new 4Runner. Just after we got the vehicle, the serpentine belt started chiring. The dealer replaced the belt twice and the problem continued. In fact, the second time the belt was replaced, it was installed wrong and it pulled out the crankshaft oil seal. A third belt was installed and the oil seal was replaced. Three days later, the new belt started chirping again. My wife was ready to take it to our independent shop even though we would have to pay for the repair. I was against this and we went back to the dealer. The salesman who sold us the 4Runner intervened and we had a meeting with the owner, the service manager and the salesman. We were given a loaner and the car was finally fixed correctly. It turned out to be the spring in the belt tensioner. I’m certain that our independent shop would have found the problem right away. I’m also certain that Toyota didn’t like paying for four serpentine belts plus the labor for installation.
I compare this to the Chevrolet agency where I bought an Uplander minivan. After a week, I noticed a bumping sensation in the steering wheel. I had been assigned a service writer who was a very attractive young lady. She was also very knowledgeable about automobiles. She explained to me that while the Uplander was safe to drive, the agency would replace the intermediate steering shaft. She went on to say that the coupler was like a rotator cuff. I asked her if the problem could have been caused my wife driving the Uplander–my wife had just had rotator cuff surgery and perhaps the Uplander had caught it from my wife. The service writer told me that I couldn’t blame my wife for this one–this was a manufacturing defect.
The dealer is the agent between the manufacturer and the customer. I do my best to establish a good working relationship with the service department personnel and it has paid off for me. Automobiles aren’t built with the quality of a fine Swiss watch, and I can accept that fact. I’ve had service departments go way beyond the call of duty for me to make things right.
I don’t. Personally I think that pursuing anything with the dealer or Toyota is a waste of time.