GM Is Off To Good Start In "Pile-On" Ignition Switch Lawsuits

General Discussion
41

For what a car costs today, I demand much better than ‘average’ reliability. For half-a-year’s pay or even more, I shouldn’t have to keep taking it back to the dealer, even if it is under warranty / recall work. The first 10 years, at least, should be trouble free (not counting routine maintenance / wear items or course).

That being said, Toyota / Honda don’t seem to be the paragons of reliability they used to be. My guess is they have become so successful / profitable they aren’t “hungry” anymore. All empires have a lifecycle. If quality does deteriorate at the Japanese automakers, they’ll probably be able to coast on their reputations for a few decades, much the same as the Big 3 did before them.

There’s no money to be made selling a “basic no-nonsense well designed car” and then people like us keep it for 10 - 20 years or even longer. Remember that most of us reading and posting to a forum like this are above average in critical thinking skills. Most people are conditioned to want what they are told to want by advertisers. Therefore most people want a new car with all the latest bells and whistles every 3 years or so, and that’s what keeps the economy going.

I wanted to comment on the lawsuit thing, but I guess it would be off-topic. . . I can’t hardly turn on a television without seeing one of those “sell-us-your-structured-settlement-for-a-lump-sum-of-cash” commercials. Are there really THAT many people out there with structured settlements? And where are they all coming from? There must be, or they wouldn’t be running so many commercials. . .

42

"Remember that most of us reading and posting to a forum like this are above average in critical thinking skills."
Jeeze, that’s scary enough to keep me awake nights! :flushed:

43
I would suggest that anecdotal evidence is compelling for the person experiencing it.

Nice cut and paste…but I noticed you didn’t cut the url’s which is NOT anecdotal evidence. Nice try…D for effort.

44

Response to @“the same mountainbike” ; well, I think so. Even when there’s disagreement here, like peak oil or climate change or left foot braking, the arguments are usually fact-based as opposed to the name calling that seems to be so prevalent elsewhere on the internet. Oftentimes I end up re-considering my own point of view after reading other opinions here. My only complaint is that so many discussions tend to go off-topic at the same time they get really interesting. . .

. . . "scary enough to keep me awake nights. . . " Well, just remember this George Carlin quote, “Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize. . . half of them are even stupider than THAT!”

45

LOL, I love it! That man was a genius!

46
. . . "scary enough to keep me awake nights. . . " Well, just remember this George Carlin quote, "Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize. . . half of them are even stupider than THAT!"

Half the people are stupider than the median intelligence, which is not necessarily the same as the average intelligence.

47

True, but George Carlin wasn’t teaching stat when he said it! :smiley:

48

I Always Appreciated The Humor Of Steven Wright:
“I was in a restaurant and a menu said you could order breakfast anytime, and I ordered French toast in the Renaissance.”

"One day I got on the usual bus, and when I stepped in, I saw the most gorgeous blond Chinese girl…I sat beside her. I said, “Hi,” and she said, “Hi,” and then I said, “Nice day, isn’t it?,” and she said, “I saw my analyst today and he says I have a problem.” So I asked, “What’s the problem?” She replied, “I can’t tell you. I don’t even know you…” I said, “Well sometimes it’s good to tell your problems to a perfect stranger on a bus.” So she said, “Well, my analyst said I’m a nymphomaniac and I only like Jewish cowboys…by the way, my name is Denise.” I said, “Hello, Denise. My name is Bucky Goldstein…”

'Well, you know when you’re rocking in a rocking chair, and you go so far that you almost fall over backwards, but at the last instant you catch yourself? That’s how I feel all the time."

CSA

49
There's no money to be made selling a "basic no-nonsense well designed car" and then people like us keep it for 10 - 20 years or even longer. Remember that most of us reading and posting to a forum like this are above average in critical thinking skills. Most people are conditioned to want what they are told to want by advertisers. Therefore most people want a new car with all the latest bells and whistles every 3 years or so, and that's what keeps the economy going.

Until of course someone proves them wrong and offers such a choice and it catches on and they find people are willing to spend the money to make such a product profitable.
In the '60s and 70’s, you could buy cheap stereos, and the more expensive stereos were just louder cheap stereos. Then came along companies that proved that there was a market hungry for high end equipment and the audiophile market took off.
You might say that companies like BMW showed car makers that there were people willing to pay money for high end sporty cars instead of softly sprung barges with big engines and push button everything.

50
No dealers for Nissan around here (have no idea where one is, but think it's over 180 miles) but my brother-in-law Rich, who lives 4 hours away outside a major city, bought a new 2005 or 2006 (I believe) Nissan Pathfinder.

And that’s why anecdotal evidence isn’t very reliable. Edmunds, Consumer Reports and several others rate the 2005 and 2006 Pathfinders very reliable.

51
I can't hardly turn on a television without seeing one of those "sell-us-your-structured-settlement-for-a-lump-sum-of-cash" commercials. Are there really THAT many people out there with structured settlements?

I wondered too…when I see those commercials. There must be. They’ve been running those commercials for a few years now.

52

“And that’s why anecdotal evidence isn’t very reliable. Edmunds, Consumer Reports and several others rate the 2005 and 2006 Pathfinders very reliable.”

The following contains my opinions:
This is why you can’t rely very much on reported reliability in some car magazines based on surveys (anecdotal evidence) and enhanced to continue numbers of subscribers. Read CR’s own disclaimer explanation of the nearly nonexistent difference between levels of reliability ratings. I have subscribed to CR for probably 50 years, anyhow, to read the more objective car reviews (not anecdotal survey based) and to get ratings and features on appliances, etcetera.

Regardless, Edmunds and Consumer Reports are not going to build any dealer support for Asian cars and European cars in my locale. The extremely weak dealer support in my area overshadows any perceived differences in reliability, anyhow and renders that debate moot.

But, to continue, I must be an extremely lucky guy to keep accidentally buying extremely reliable new and used GM and Chrysler (No more since Fiat) cars.

@MikeInNH,
"And that’s why anecdotal evidence isn’t very reliable."
Do a search for the heater coolant tubing issue on these Nissans. How many anecdotal stories do you find? Are these folks making up stories, too? Tell me it’s bologna.

I searched for any Nissan extended warranties or even any TSBs on this problem and guess what? I couldn’t find any. The customers know, Nissan doesn’t apparently know, and word hasn’t made it to the car mags.

Tell me some Nissans don’t have a reliability issue here, a fairly critical and expensive one for owners. We’re talking about coolant leakage. They lost my brother-in-law as a customer over it.

Sorry Mike, I think you’re a good guy, but I’m never going to buy this Asian cars are more reliable than American cars myth. There may have been a time period in history where it washed, but not in quite some time.

CSA

53

The Consumer Reports Buying Guide for 2012 rates the 2005 Pathfinder “used car verdicts” as much worse than average, the 2006 as worse than average.

Much worse than average trouble spots on the 2005 include;
Engine, major
Drive system
Fuel system
Climate system
Exhaust
Body integrity

The Dodge Durango has better ratings.

54

After working for 5 car dealers over many years and running my own shop I feel that my sample size is substantial.
They all break regardless of the cheap, electroplated plastic badge on the back…

55
The extremely weak dealer support in my area overshadows any perceived differences in reliability, anyhow and renders that debate moot.

It’s not perceived…it’s been been shown for DECADES the overall reliability differences between Asian and American vehicles.Survey after Survey after survey…people like me and Mountainbike who where very strong American auto buyers for years…then started buying Japanese (made in America) vehicles and couldn’t understand why we didn’t buy sooner. Or my brother-in-law who for decades was a hard-core Ford fan - even though he was having far more problems with his Fords then my wife or I were with our Honda’s and Nissans and Toyotas. Now he and his wife drive Honda’s…the one thing he’s missing is the camaraderie with the dealer techs. After 3 years of Honda ownership he hasn’t been to the dealer ONCE. With his Fords…he was a frequent flyer.

56

I own both Honda and GM vehicles. The Honda is more reliable, but not so much so that I would not consider GM vehicles in the future. This is an illustration of the small reliability differences from top to bottom in the Consumer Reports ratings. At least CR discloses this to the reader. You may recall a graph that @texases posted a while ago. It shows that Toyota and Honda go the longest time before reaching 1 repair for each car sold; 7 to 10 years IIRC. It also shows that GM and Ford vehicles go 5 years before reaching 1 repair per vehicle sold. I have no problem buying a car that lasts for 5 or more years without needing repairs if I like it best and there is a cost advantage. I don’t care about resale value since I keep my cars for at least 10 years, and often donate them. Some folks don’t care to play the small differences in reliability, but it doesn’t bother me. I’ve gotten some phenomenal deals doing that.

57

5 years…is one thing…it’s the 5-10 years that concerns me. At 10 years our vehicles are over 300k miles. I guess if you only drive 15k miles/year then after 10 years you’ll only have 150k miles…GM’s/Fords might be fine…but for 30k/year…not what I’ve seen and read.

58

Years ago I researched SUVs for a friend and found the Nissan Pathfinder to be the most reliable, and the Jeep Grand Cherokee the least reliable.

That was before Nissan became part of the French Renault group. The days of Honda, Toyota and Nissan being the 3 most reliable makes are long gone. Mazda seems to have taken Nissan’s spot.

Remember, Renault engineered some of the worst cars on the road.

59

I subscibe to Consumer Reports and buy gift subscriptions for my son and brother. I fill out the questionnaires every year. The one problem that I have with CR’ s findings is that the survey only is taken by CR subscribers. CR subscribers may be different the population as a whole. In recent years, CR has been testing more upscale things. For example, a Cadillac Escalade is way out of my league as is a,$7000 refrigerator for my kitchen. I read Consumer Reports and look at the frequency of repair charts when making purchases, but I search out other information as well. More and more I think CR is appealing to the wealthy in the items it tests and the responses to its questionnaires are from this segment of the population. I read CR so that I can drool over what rich people buy. As far as automobile reliability is concerned, I think the Checker of yesteryear would beat anything made today.

60

Myths Die Hard…
“GM’s/Fords might be fine…but for 30k/year…not what I’ve seen and read.”
Seen and read? (anecdotal)
I actually own and operate the vehicles. One GM car is 15 model-years old at very nearly 300,000 miles and still on the road, daily. Another, 12 model-years old is nearing 200,000 miles and is like new. These cars car not garaged and get no special maintenance, just very basic stuff. This has been typical of the GM cars I’ve purchased new and used.

It might be time to rethink this myth. My brother-in-law learned quickly. One (Nissan) and done!
CSA