That's a false argument. No one is suggesting GM starts building Bentley's...all we ask is that they start building vehicles that are SAFE to drive..and as reliable as other manufacturers. While all manufacturers have problems....GM seems to have a lot more then most.
Safe is a relative term. Nobody builds a car that’s safe to drive, they can only build cars that are safer than others.
At every car company, someone has to decide what’s “good enough”, or else you end up with a product that costs as much as a Bentley. Even Bentley has to draw the line somewhere.
There’s room for improvement on any car and which will make it safer and longer lasting. However, I think many people would balk at paying 75 grand for a Chevy Malibu.
The problem I have with the GM switch debacle is that a lot of details behind each individual accident are not known. Consider the lady whose daughter was killed and who became the poster child for this issue with mom appearing before Congress to testify.
The daughter was killed because…
A. The airbags did not deploy, allegedly, because of the ignition switch.
B. She was fighting with her boyfriend while drinking at a party, took off in a rage without using the seatbelt, and hit a tree at high speed in a cul-de-sac at 1 in the morning while having a .17 blood alcohol content; twice the legal limit for intoxication.
Mom apparently has an issue with A but not B. Just my opinion, but if anyone is to be blamed it’s not GM; it’s mama who apparently ran a loose ship as far as her daughter goes.
Average compared to what? Not Toyota or Honda!!! I've never aspired to be a C student. But I guess that's good enough for GM.
How much better are Hondas and Toyotas than GM products anyway? It seems both Honda and Toyota have also had recalls. My Toyota had one and my Wife’s Honda Element has had a couple.
The term “average” just means you are in the center of the bell curve, it does not say how wide or narrow that bell curve is.
“Average compared to what? Not Toyota or Honda!!! I’ve never aspired to be a C student. But I guess that’s good enough for GM.”
@ MikeInNH
Times are changing. In a recent CR car owners survey the number of Chevrolet Impala Owners who would buy one, again, exceeded (not by much) the number of Toyota Camry Owners who’d buy another one. Oh, Oh.
Times have changed. GM reliability, which I have found has been excellent (I own 6 of their vehicles), has improved even beyond that.
Not only that, but there are no Asian car dealers around my locale, but several GM and Ford, apparently better dealer support.
I’ve never bought into the Consumer Reports thing simply because there are too many variables and subjective opinions involved.
The icing on the skeptical cake came a few years ago when CR stated that the body/chassis on a 2013 Toyota Camry with a 4 cylinder engine was great and the body/chassis on a 2013 Camry with a 6 cylinder engine was very poor.
Proof positive that CR publishes tripe.
The Asian cars have just as many recalls, TSBs, and non-published chronic glitches as anyone else.
Times have changed. GM reliability, which I have found has been excellent (I own 6 of their vehicles), has improved even beyond that.
Good for you…Unfortunately that’s not what I’ve experienced…or friends and relatives experienced. And based on surveys listed below…most buyers of American vehicles experience. You can show all the anecdotal evidence you want…still won’t make it true.
I owned a 2006 Chevrolet Uplander which we sold to our son because he needed a better vehicle. I replaced the Uplander with a 2011 Toyota Sienna. The Uplander now has 155,000 miles and has had no major repairs. The Sienna has 72,000 and been reliable, but no more so than the Uplander. CR gave the Uplander low marks for frequency of repair and the Sienna high marks. In my experience they are both about equal. My reason for not buying GM was that GM quit making minivans and I need a,minivan.
References 1 and 3 are both from Consumer Reports and reference 2 must be European models in @MikeInNH 's list. Reference 3 shows the most information, and it looks like GM is average when all GM brands are grouped together.
Times have changed. GM reliability, which I have found has been excellent (I own 6 of their vehicles), has improved even beyond that.
Good for you…Unfortunately that’s not what I’ve experienced…or friends and relatives experienced. And based on surveys listed below…most buyers of American vehicles experience. You can show all the anecdotal evidence you want…still won’t make it true.
I would suggest that anecdotal evidence is compelling for the person experiencing it. I wouldn’t buy a GM product based on my experience with a 1980 Pontiac Phoenix. On the other hand my 1999 Mercury Mystique is one of the best cars I’ve ever had. Very few repairs and I really like the way it drives. The Contour/Mystique twins were only made from 1995 thru 2000, and if I remember correctly were rated worse than average or much worse than average in most categories by CR. They only had a model run of 5 years, so obviously Ford couldn’t sell as many as they wanted and gave up after 5 years.
Intellectually I understand that I happened to get a poor example from GM and a good example from Ford. I also understand these ratings by CR and others are based on information from thousands and thousands of folks.
For me, personal experience is a potent force when it comes time to purchase something as expensive as a vehicle. I think most people are like this and would give more weight to personal experience than statistics.
I’ve owned Ford, GM, Chrysler and 3 different Japanese makes. For some I’ve kept track of the repair frequency over the years and the results are as follows:
Dodge Dart : 40 repair items per 65,000 miles
Ford Granada: 21 repair items per 65,000 miles
Chevrolet Caprice: 15 repair items per 65,000 miles
NIssan Sentra: 19 repair items per 65,000 miles
Toyota Corolla: 1 repair item ($42 belt) per 65,000 miles
Mazda 3: No repair items so far at 25,000 miles.
The Ford Granada was the most disappointing car; I sold it for $750 in 1989 in frustration with the body rusting out and things continually breaking.
The 1988 Caprice was very serviceable (good body) when I sold it in 2007 for $1450. This car and the Ford Crown Victoria are probably the best Detroit cars ever made.
The Mazda3 and the Corolla are representative of good Japanese cars today; the Nissan is a significant cut below that but still good.
I’m fine with average, if the price is right. I also tend to focus more on long term track records and less on superficial stuff, sort of the opposite of most magazine road tests. Long term cost of ownership is a big issue for me. I’ll gladly put up with an ignition lock that should not have the weight of a huge key chain on it if the engine, transmission, and drivetrain holds up for a half-million miles and it always starts.
I’ve got an anecdote.
No dealers for Nissan around here (have no idea where one is, but think it’s over 180 miles) but my brother-in-law Rich, who lives 4 hours away outside a major city, bought a new 2005 or 2006 (I believe) Nissan Pathfinder. I have ridden in it. It was one of my first exposures to the information screen in the dashboard. He liked that feature.
Anyhow, he takes extremely good care of his vehicles. He flies all over the country and Canada for business and rents many different vehicles. The Pathfinder appealed to him so he decided to try one and made the purchase.
He had several problems with it that were covered by warranty, but still inconvenient, nonetheless.
The coup de grace came shortly after the vehicle was just out of extended warranty when his bill for a routine maintenance was over $1500. It seems a coolant line that serves a rear heater had corroded through and for some reason was an expensive repair.
He ordinarily keeps his vehicles a long time, but that was not the case with this one. It put a bad taste in his mouth. He is not going to buy another Asian branded car. He’s back to GM vehicles. CSA
I think this is a case of a vehicle being too fancy for its own good. I’ve never cared for bells and whistles. Just give me a basic no-nonsense well designed car and I’ll gladly roll up the windows with a crank and shift gears manually.
@db4690
Actually, I think a lot of the cars available today are just to laden with bells and whistles for their own good, but then a lot of the people I knew couldn’t understand why I paid top dollar for a manual turntable for my stereo. I’m also pretty sure a lot of people also don’t understand why I own a single shot break open trap shotgun that could easily have been several pump or semi auto shotguns.
Unfortunately, quality and bells and whistles seems to be a package deal in the auto world. There’s no equivalent to the high quality manual turntable or fine single shot firearm in the auto world.