There is a difference between a diagnostic test and “reading codes”. The latter is not offered as the customer will continue to ask for further detail and research until diagnostic results are reached at the expense of the volunteers involved.
@GEG I’m a professional mechanic working on the “flat-rate” system. If you’re not sure what that means, in essence it means I am paid my hourly wage based on what the shop labor charge is. For example, if the customer is paying 3 hours of labor to replace a water pump, I earn 3 hours of my wage for doing it, regardless of how long I take. 3 hrs X $30 = $90. I get $90 to replace the water pump, whether it takes me 2 hours or 4.
Now if the service writer comes to me and says “I have a customer here with an engine light on”, even if I’m getting paid my 1hr. diag charge, I’m not going to stop what I’m doing making good money to do a diag that may or may not be profitable to me. I tell the service writer "I can look at it after I finish this water pump and the brake job I have next. You have a busy shop with guaranteed good work, and it’s not too much of a stretch that you have to wait several days to get in.
I’m not saying that it’s right or that you were treated fairly, just that that’s the reality of the business.
As for a simple generic code reader, I see no value in having one, don’t own one, and hate the thought of a service writer having one. They offer so little information that they often leave me with more questions than when I started.
I think several improvements could be made in this industry, but before that happens the industry as a whole will need to attract a better class of worker and start charging better rates to reflect what a good mechanic is really worth.
Are we supposed to be impressed with OP’s experience, credentials, etc. . . . ?!
“An argument could be made that the manufacturer should be required to provide a method for the owner to read the diagnostic codes”
That’s what I liked about my Rivieras with the display CRT. You could go into diagnostic mode at any time, parked or driving and see any trouble codes that were set, and also see what all the other functions were doing for OBDI. Of course if you didn’t have the factory service manual, you wouldn’t know how to get into diagnostic mode, or what the codes meant, but still was nice. When I tried out my second Riv, the salesman was sitting in the passenger seat while I went into diagnostics to check it out. He didn’t know about it either.
All I’ve got to say is that dealers need to make some type of arrangement or accommodation to deal with immediate or urgent needs or they’ll lose business. Remember Honda Blackbird telling how he stopped for a lady stalled on the side of the road. She was in distress and had and urgent and immediate need for help. He took care of it by going out of his way. If she would have coasted into a dealer, should she have expected to be told to get in line and come back in a couple weeks? Somehow you just have to have the staff to deal with the immediate, and if it can wait they make an appointment. But if I’m 500 miles from home and I have an issue, I can’t really wait a couple weeks.
The main reason garages charge a “code read fee” is that many people come in to have a diagnostic code read and then decide to either fix it themselves or not fix it at all. Every garage I have gone to will put the fee towards the final repair so, as long as I get the work done there, it doesn’t end up costing me anything extra.
The other thing is that reading a code is not diagnosing the problem. A good mechanic reads the code and uses it assist in the diagnosis of the problem. The code does not say things like “replace the O2 sensor”. I had an experience in Miami where one dealer simply read a code and said I needed $800 in wheel sensors and a new $4,500 transmission. I took it to another dealer in Naples, FL and the mechanic read the code AND did a diagnostic search for the problem. It ended up being frayed wires on a transmission speed sensor. $280 in labor later the wires were repaired and I have gone almost 50,000 miles without trouble.
The point of my story is that you WANT a qualified mechanic to DIAGNOSE your problem, not just READ a code. I don’t want a service adviser plugging a code reader into the OBDII port and declaring I need a bunch of stuff (like that dealer in Miami). I use a handheld code reader now but as a diagnostic aid, not a crystal ball. I will gladly pay people, including mechanics, for work they have done.
db4690. I thourghly answered a question of what my occupation is and how im paid! I could care less what you think or whether your impressed or not.
Bloody. My reader does say O2 sensor. Doesn’t say “replace O2 sensor” it gives the code and then underneath it it just says O2 Bank one or O2 Bank 2 indicating which sensor. Sometimes it says both if the car doesnt have the ability to tell you exactly which one it is. Sometimes it gives multiple possibilities and you have to use your brain a bit. Readers are by no means rocket science HOWEVER, they are rarely cut and dry. They simply point you in a general direction. Most times it gives me two or even three possibilities.
BING…that is EXACTLY my point. Thank You
Asemaster. I understand flat rate. My point is that manufacturers tell you SPECIFICALLY to seek immediate help, or at least Honda did in their documentation, and they should not be doing that it they are going to tell you to turn around and leave when you’re in need.
@GEG - I have a code reader that identifies the sensor (e.g. O2Bank 1 or 2) but that doesn’t tell you if the problem is the sensor, the wiring, the catalytic converter, the exhaust manifold leaking, or any number of other things. Getting a code for an O2 sensor is a bit like running a fever. The thermometer can tell you that you have a fever but it cannot tell you WHY you have a fever. The code simply says (typically) “low voltage sensor X”.
My code reader lets me see real time diagnostic data, including voltages from all of the sensors. This type of data supplements the simple codes and allowed me to diagnose a dead O2 sensor, as opposed to any of the other conditions mentioned above. But I only ordered the sensor AFTER I did a thorough diagnosis, not simply because I scanned a code. This is the way a professional mechanic works. This is also why they don’t want to just rush you in for service to just scan a code. A good garage will scan the code AND do a diagnostic on your vehicle. Not a bad deal for $80 and you are going to have to wait until they can spend the time to do it right.
Owning a car is a pain in the rear and it sometimes feels like your garage and mechanic are making it more difficult but I would have to say that the garages and mechanics I deal with are all interested in diagnosing and fixing my car right the first time. It saves them time and money this way. If your garage is not doing this then switch garages. You don’t have time for that kind of aggravation.
I agree with that for the most part
About the need for a proper diagnosis
Not so much the $80
There are some problems, where it’s going to take more than $80 to get a definitive answer
If you don’t agree with that last part, then you either have a crystal ball or you’ve not turned wrenches for a living
There are some instances where the service advisor has to get written authorization for more testing. Because that $80 has gotten you so far. The guy has covered the basics, looked for obvious problems, done some preliminary testing. But that 1/2hr of diagnostic time is up, for example. He’s eliminated some things. But if you want a definitive answer, fork over some more money for more testing
This scenario often applies to something more serious and/or exotic than an oxygen sensor code
If she would have coasted into a dealer, should she have expected to be told to get in line and come back in a couple weeks? Somehow you just have to have the staff to deal with the immediate, and if it can wait they make an appointment.
This situation is quite different than the OP coming in with what amounts to an emissions related problem. The light was not flashing. Chevy defines their light as an SES (Service Engine SOON) and explain in the manual if it is flashing, then you need to address it immediately. Most others have similar verbiage in the manual.
Sure, in the manual they say to get it to the dealer for diagnosis. This is a legal CYA in the event you sue them for not suggesting you have it looked at and you do something foolish. That suggestion is no guarantee that the shop you choose has extra staff sitting and waiting in the event you just happen to show up with an emergency. Any business with excess staff is wasting profit. Most reasonable people understand you might have to wait at a good shop.
Now, if you coast in with an obvious driveability problem, there IS an immediate solution for you. Authorize the diagnostic and either get a loaner (if you bought there), rent a car, take a taxi or call a friend. No one owes you a ride. Figure it out.
Yeah I can agree with that. I remember one morning heading to work the oil light came on in my Riviera. I swung by the Buick dealer and was helped right away. It was no big deal but needed to at least talk to them.
Bloody. I understand that it could be wiring but I’ve replaced a few O2 sensors in my life and it’s never been wiring…it’s just not something that goes bad very often. That said…of course it happens. I’m certainly not doing the volume an actual mechanic does but I’ve done at least a dozen O2 sensors for myself and others and I’ve never had that not fix it. I do generally check the wiring before replacing anything electrical however. DC electrician and PCB testings is what i did for toshiba so I just always check wiring…just a habit… so i’m not just totally assuming it’s the O2. They are pretty pricey after-all.
Nevada…shops around here always check codes…don’t generally tell you what they are but they read them. I’m fine with that. I didn’t need or want the code. Just wanted told serious or not serious…basically. Giving a customer a code would be stupid because then they would just do the work themselves. See Autozone.
The issue with your post twin is that there was no way to know that it was an emissions problem until I later had it scanned and found that out. It’s nice to have hind sight and say that it wasnt an issue because it was just an emissions issue…we know that now…didnt know it then. My manual mentions nothing of a flashing light and I’ve never seen that on my honda (or any other vehicle I’ve owned) Not sure the honda has that? I understand that no one is there waiting for little old me…I’d never expect that. But they didn’t say “Sorry but we are totally slammed it could be an hour or two” they said i’d have to come back (if memory serves) like 3 weeks to get it read. I’d of gladly waited an hour for them to read it and say "it’s an emission issue…no biggy…make your appointment. They wanted me to wait 3 weeks or so merely to have the code read. No thanks, not driving around for 3 weeks with a SES light staring at me. Oh…and I never said anyone owed me anything. Never said I wanted anything free. I don’t have a chevy…it’s a honda. I’m really tired of repeating myself…I would of paid the $80, they refused. If they had said “it’s serious, leave it and rent a car” I’d of done that. Seriously…reading comprehension is your friend.
The really funny thing is that autozone can do a free code read and they probably pay they’re people like $12/hr.I’m looking forward to that raise.
Wow…so many things to comment on… No Honda’s? Thats almost unimaginable to me…lol…But Im sure its possible…haha
As for this brake situation… Definitely something awry…usually a Honda will go thru 3 sets of front brakes to every rear pad replace…or something like that…its at least 2 to 1…maybe I exaggerate a bit…
Not sure which type of calipers were used in the back…depending on the e brake setup will determine the caliper type…screw in…or push in pistons…
I just did a quick lookup and see that this vehicle uses the Dual Rotor setup in the rear…which is to say it is a drum brake AND a disc brake… So your P brake is not the issue…
Your issue is either the caliper itself or The caliper Slider Pins (Massively Overlooked Items that need to SLIDE and be greased so they…well…slide) OR… a collapsed rear brake line that is acting like a one way check valve (possible, but less likely).
My first suspicion ? Is the sliders…everyone ignores those poor sliders!..why? I dunno…I find more of them locked up than I do sliding. They are important…very important and locked up sliders will mimic a sticking caliper all day long. I see people replace calipers thinking they nailed it…and dont even look at the sliders…why? I dunno… I guess some “Mechanics” dont understand what they do or are there for…silly I know…but…hey…
Outside of that… The calipers are my second suspect… Easy to suss out…see if your sliders slide…if they do…its the caliper…If they do not slide…you found the issue.
Methinks your slider pins, well, …arent sliding…
Blackbird
The Pads Have To Slide, Also.
Here In Rust Country Central If A Car Parks For More Than A Day Or Two The Pads Can Corrode/Adhere To the Caliper/Carrier Rails.
That’s Why I Appreciate That All My GM Cars Have Stainless Steel Covers On The Rails! They Work!
CSA