I’m not researching anything because I know that a lot of what is printed is often
recycled, incorrect, and practical experience (even while working for Honda) is what forms my opinion.
A glaring error on ALLDATA about 2 years ago is what caused me to just cancel my ALLDATA subscription entirely.
When this blatant error was pointed out (wiring) ALLDATA’s response was that “maybe someone altered the wiring”. That is not the case. ALLDATA is wrong and that’s not the first time I’ve run across this.
It’s also not the first time I’ve run across wiring errors and not the first time ALLDATA responded to me with a statement like that.
(Matter of fact, this ALLDATA info that led to a hair pulling last straw is what caused me to cancel my subscription. The erroneous info was found later on by me to apparently be page scans out of a Haynes manual; same errors and all.
And it’s not just wiring or oil pressure specs that are wrong. It carries over into any one of a number of areas.
Someone posted on CT a couple of years ago about their “engine compression being good and within the specs given in the factory manual”. Not at 115 PSI it’s not.
I’ve even got a Helm EVAT manual (elec/vac) for my Mark VIII and this manual, which is published for and used by Ford dealers, is flat dead wrong in several areas. Somewhere the reality doesn’t mesh with the people who write and print this stuff.
Caddyman has it right. The story has too many versions and a truthful one will always remain the same. The OP in that saga is just looking for someone to hang the tab on for their screwup and it’s a pretty common malady.
I don’t know what the exact oil pressure spec is for that particular car but the only source that I would even start to consider as reliable would be a factory manual laid in front of me; and that might even be with a grain of salt.
After you run across a certain number of things that aren’t correct you start to view info suspiciously until proven otherwise; and it’s not just Honda.
We had a ruckus break out one time in which VW’s high dollar and brand new test instrument caused too much advance on a distributor equipped VW and which then fried the top end on the first trip out on the highway.
They tried to lay this on the tech but after proving the instrument was at fault the VW rep stalked out mad. Point being that even a high dollar test instrument (and brand new) is not entirely trustworthy.
Same goes for all of my family members cars. Example. The Chiltons manual states the oil pressure in my oldest son’s Camaro should be 6 PSI at low RPMs. At 250k miles it still carries 30 at idle and 65 at 2000 RPM. Same for my other son’s Camaro (300k miles) until it was wrecked.
As to that other person’s Honda let me pose a question. Lack of oil (1.5 originally but who knows) is likely going to mean not even 10 PSI of oil pressure. It’s probably going to be zero or very close to it, depending.
Crank bearings are the first thing to become damaged but since this engine uses oil pressure to operate the variable cams, etc. (and since a cam problem was mentioned I think) what do you think of the possibility of something in the valve train coming unglued due to little or no oil pressure? My feeling is that it’s quite possible.
I am amazed this debate is still going on. I’m not a pro mechanic, but I’ve been fixing cars for 40 years. I’m also a lawyer (sorry about that, please don’t stop reading). Warranties typically are void for defects CAUSED BY owner abuse. Jacinta’s situation is a classic warranty problem: Owner abuse (failure to check oil) that may or may not have caused or exacerbated the problem. If she had checked the oil, MAYBE the problem would have been averted, maybe not. We just don’t have all the facts. It’s not impossible to construct scenarios where Jacinta is not at fault, and either the oil change shop, or Honda is at fault. The question is…who has the burden of proof here. I think the burden is on Honda (since they’ve issued the extended warranty) to prove owner abuse CAUSED the problem. I don’t think that they have, at this time, met their burden. The facts as we presently know them only SUGGEST that failure to check the oil caused the problem, and the Honda dealer is in the position to determine all the facts. They have not yet done so. All this assumes that the Honda dealer will honestly report what they find. Tough situation, but I think Jacinta deserves more support here, at least for now.
Just because you have an extended warranty on a car does not mean that everything is magically covered no matter what. The car was presented to the dealer with a seized camshaft and almost no oil in the pan. The vehicle was last serviced by an independent oil change shop. Not Honda. Unless the major loss of oil is due to a warranty “Covered” part, Honda warranty can wash their hands to it.
The assertion (inference, presumption, etc.) has been made that the low oil volume caused an unacceptably low oil pressure. Put this to the test–perform a test involving those factors.
Attach a trusted mechanical oil pressure test gauge to a 2006 Honda Pilot V6 VTEC engine.
Run engine until normal engine temperature, and oil pressure, are reached.
Perform engine oil pressure measurements at various engine rpms. Record results.
Remove quantities of oil, and take oil pressure measurements, until the oil pressures drop to unacceptable values. Record results.
What are the results? At what oil volume did the oil pressures fall to unacceptable values?
In the subject engine (the one damaged) we don’t accurately know what the engine oil volume was; so, we don’t know if the oil volume, and oil pressures, were unacceptably low. As important, we don’t know what minimum volumes and pressures are harmful—not accurately. Sometimes, like now, seat-of-the-parts reckoning isn’t acceptable.
Since we dont have the vehicle in front of us to actually verify the 1.5 quart statement we just have to make our assumptions based on what the mechanic and the OP tells us. As far as the engine running on 1.5 quarts and not damaging the engine. There is no way no how anyone can convince me that 1.5 quarts is not going to damage that motor. Like ok said, there is at least a quart of that in suspension throughout the motor when its running which leaves approx 1/2 quart in the pan. Thats barely enough to reach the screen when the vehicle is sitting stationary. Now throw in some RPM’s and the vehicle moving forward, braking, turning…No… Sorry, but that pump was sucking air along with the little bit of oil drizzling down from the top end. As many warranty companies I have worked with, I can tell you that Honda is going to look at it like this, Oil change done at lube shop, oil leaking from drain plug, top end of engine seized with a quart and a half of oil left in engine…DENIED…I think the OP would have a very hard time convincing Honda that the engine WASN’T damaged by the low oil. Honda will pass the buck to the oil change place. If for some reason Honda decides to actually cover this, it would be done on a goodwill basis.
I am NOT an attorney, but I am an engineer involved with warranty.
It is my understanding that all Honda would have to do is state the cause of the warranty denial - in this case, loss of oil due to negligence. They don’t even need to state WHO is negligent.
At that point the burden falls back on the owner to prove that the warranty denial is incorrect for the following reason: XXXXXXXXX. In this case, there is no disagreement - Honda can not be held responsble for someone else’s work.
Transman, the amount of oil in the pan has oscillated from zero to 1.5 quarts at various places in the “Denied” thread…I don’t think anyone actually measured the oil if there was any oil to measure. NOBODY knows how much oil was in the engine when it last ran…For all we know it could have had 4 quarts in it…Or zero quarts…Who knows??
If the oil pressure warning light is working properly, and it never came on (all we can go on is third hand information) then the engine was still being fed pressurized oil. And that’s all that engine needs to survive for a short but considerable length of time…If there is pressurized oil in the main gallery, the entire engine is being lubricated. The amount of oil in the pan is immaterial as long as THERE IS SOME OIL!! I am not saying that over a longer period of time, in summer heat, that 1.5 quarts will adequately lubricate an engine…it will not, not for long…And in this post I’m just adding to the conjecture that surrounds the Jacinta / Denied saga…When cars get towed from one shop to another, nothing good ever happens…The only Ray Of Hope here is that Jacinta LUCKS OUT!
Caddyman has spoken the gist of the problem: We don’t know, accurately, the MINIMUM amount of oil the engine needs to operate safely; and, we don’t know, accurately, the ACTUAL amount of oil in the engine. So, an unknown added to an unknown, equals an unknown. Boy! Do we have this nailed, or not?!
WHO will be the first to measure, and determine, in any gasoline automotive engine, the minimum oil volume needed to maintain a safe engine oil pressure? Any takers?
Well, remember too that she said the AAA driver and a mechanic both said that the oil light did not come on for them. Which means, since both the driver and the mechanic didnt come into the picture until AFTER the engine self destructed, all they could do is turn the ignition to the on position and see if the light illuminates. If the light did not illuminate for them when they turned the ignition on then the light is faulty. If this is true then we dont know whether the engine was being fed pressurized oil or not. If the level is so low that the screen is sucking air, the light should illuminate. Oil pressure senders are generally located in the oil circuit close to the pump so large amounts of air entering the pump should illuminate the light. She is though, like you said changing the story on a daily basis it seems like. I, personally abandoned her thread because it is getting ridiculously long and drawn out…
"At the very least she should have stopped and checked the level when it started making noise."
I never read that she heard any noise. I think the belt just gave out and killed the car. I don’t even know for sure the Cam Shaft froze. Put it back together and see if it is destroyed.
As long as the pick-up screen stays submerged in oil and not TOO MUCH air gets drawn in, reasonable oil pressure will be maintained FOR A WHILE…Engine oil plays an important role in COOLING piston engines and an inadequate amount of oil will quickly get very hot, very thin, and start to burn off…Winter driving conditions would slow this process down somewhat…I do not think oil PRESSURE is critical in low rpm engines. What is critical is that plain bearings are fed a continuous supply of oil… The viscosity of the oil itself is what forms the wedge that prevents metal to metal contact between the rotating parts…
Let me add this about the oil pressure specs.
It’s stated that normal oil pressure at idle is 10 PSI and the oil light sender turns on at 10 PSI. Since these specs are for a new engine this means the oil light will be flickering at idle on every new car because the switch closes at the minimum pressure of 10.
Throw in a low oil or oil slosh factor along with the more important one of engine wear and 10 PSI at idle will not exist. Since the oil pressure will be below 10 this means that every car with 30k miles on will have an oil lamp on at idle if that logic is followed.
I also do not believe that any engine with 10 PSI (and less on an engine with wear) is going to survive if the cam lobe operation (or timing chain tensioner, hydraulic lifters, etc.) is dependent on decent oil pressure.
The only engine I’ve seen with normal low oil pressure is the old VW air cools but they’re a different kettle of fish. Flat engines, cam in the bottom, low compression of 6-7 to 1, and compression pressures of 120 or so being normal. It doesn’t take much oil pressure to keep those happy.
The poster who states they are a lawyer is dead wrong about this being a warrantable issue.
Warranty is for factory defects in workmanship or materials. Nothing more. It does not cover anyone’s screwup and that includes the dealer. If the dealer botches an oil change the cost is on the dealer, not Honda Motor Co.
To keep the post shorter, I’ll present an actual Subaru case in another post because the subject car keeps reminding me of this incident.
Here’s the Subaru incident.
Lady buys a new Subaru from the multi-line dealer I worked for. About 7500 miles later she comes in for the scheduled service and refuses because she thinks it’s “too high”. This service is basically a glorified oil change; oil/filter, check fluids, belt, brakes, tires, etc. etc. and for a double digit only total price.
She leaves and goes 3 blocks away to a chain center (Sears, Firestone, or somebody) and has this done. After leaving the chain center she drives across the parking lot at the mall and goes shopping. Coming out, she sees an oil puddle under the front of the car and a “little blue can”, which she picked up with tissue and placed into a plastic bag in her car. Here intent was to go home and call someone to find out what this “can” was. Apparently she could not read the words OIL FILTER on the side.
Being only 10 miles from home off she goes, with lifters (hydraulic) clattering, oil lamp on, and oil pressure gauge on zero. She never makes it of course and has the car towed to us.
Of course the engine is wiped but she doesn’t care because “warranty wil pay for it”. Not.
She gets irate and storms out. Back at home she calls Subaru of America’s regional office and complains. The next morning they called and talked to me (shop foreman) and stated they would cover this repair based on what the lady said.
As per the usual, they were not given all of the details. Once I informed them of the details, including the oil filter in a bag in the back floorboard and whose filter it was, SOA backed up quickly and said no way we’re paying for this.
So the lady stayed mad, paid for the new engine, threatened to “never buy another dxxxxxx Subaru” and we never saw her again. Lucky us.
(Now as to the oil filter I could only guess on that. It appeared the threads on the filter were either a poor fit, incorrect thread, or pulled due to severe overtightening and oil pressure just happened to blow it off in the mall parking lot. The filter had very little thread left and it could only be theorized this is what happened.)
I would add that of all of the times I’ve been on the phone with a regional office about an alleged warranty repair there has only been one case in which a warranty repair was justified; and Subaru in their infinite wisdom chose to deny the one guy who deserved it.
In all other cases, the people making the claim left out parts of the story. It’s human nature to try to CYA and the more money is involved the more covering there is going on.
I have to ask, why isn’t the fact tha a siezed cam or broken belt on an interference engine results in piston and valve collision? Caddyman (bless your heart) keeps saying, “just replace your belt and I bet your good to go” (paraphrased).
If the cam siezed (and I have seen it happen on cam replacement jobs where the mechanic just lubed up the cam bearing surfaces with engine oil and not assembley lube, just once but it did happen) due to low oil or the belt broke (or slipped) this is an interference engine, you are not just going to replace the belt and drive on.
4450, what happened to keep you from posting in the original thread? I missed that part. Was it very good self control?
When Honda goes back to using timing CHAINS I might consider buying one…To me, a rubber belt on an interference engine means “No thanks, I’ll pass on that”…Poor Jacinta…If her bearings are not seized, her valves are bent…
Find the best used engine you can and stick it in there…Write the whole thing off as an “Educational Expense”…