Photo Red Light violation (6 photos and 12-second video)

General Discussion
41

Not to argue since no one will be convinced otherwise anyway. Some are willing to give the government great authority over them and others of us are not, regardless of the arguement. I do not wish us to become the same as the UK where they have more security cameras than people so some limits I think are necessary. Plus there is quite a difference in a private company having a camera on their property to guard against theft and vandals than a private company issueing criminal citations. This is strictly a govenment responsibility and cannot be delegated to a private contractor who is not accountable to the public. Same reason I’m against private prisons and private highways.

Also whether out in the open or in your own yard, you DO have a presumption of privacy. Its called freedom to pursue your own activities and free from the resulting restrictions. There is little difference in tracking people with cameras than stopping them on the streets or roads to check their documents. We don’t allow that here. We have the technical ability to peer into peoples houses and already listen to all communications so if we don’t draw a strict line at some point, there will be no logical end to it-so goes government naturally because it is filled with ambitious people with or without good intentions.

42

Driving is a Privilege, not a right. When you drive a car there are laws to follow, law enforcement needs to do what they can to enforce those laws. When you get behind the wheel of a car you give up your feeling of entitlement to do whatever you want.

If you don’t go thru red lights why are you worried? The people that are against these red light cameras are the same people who think they have the right to drive intoxicated and get furious when there are sobriety checkpoints because even though they will never admit it, they know they have been guilty or are guilty of driving intoxicated.

43

I want to do whatever I want without any government interference.

I want to drive my truck with no plates as fast as I want, while drinking a 40 ounce, blow as many stop lights as I want, on my way to my meth dealers house. Then I want to go to the gun store and buy a gun with no back round check because it violates my privacy. None their business.

I will then go hunting while drunk and high and shoot as many deer as I want, whenever I want with no hunting license or hunters safety course, Violates my privacy.

I will then change my oil and dump the waste in the creek, none of the EPAs damn business. Once I get done doing that I will drive from bar to bar, drinking more and more, I know my limits, its none of their business.

On the way home I will pick up a prostitute and have a grand ol time, none their business, its my body.

BUT, When I crash my truck I want the ambulance there quickly as possible, not my fault, not cause I was drunk, it was slick.

When I shoot hunter bob in the woods with my rouge hunting, not my fault, accident.

When I get an STD I will demand the best medical care avail. Not my fault, It was my right. I didn’t mean nothin. Just havin fun.

When I get sick from my contaminated water I will demand the government come fix my well, and pay my disability. Im a good ol boy, pay me.

44

Local governments do not have the expertise to develop, operate and calibrate the photo red light and photo speed camera systems.
These companies took a big financial risk producing these systems.
Many systems had to be accepted and installed before the companies made their money back.

Local governments would never install the systems if they had to purchase them.
I was surprised at how many violations occured between the citation I received one week and a 2nd citation I received a week later - presumably indicated by the higher citation number: L000240934

45

Sorry @wheresrick but some of us obey the laws, help create and enforce the laws, don’t drink or use drugs, or certainly don’t drive while not in full capacity, but then have seen the ugly underbelly of government and believe it needs to be restrained. Shouldn’t be so quick to stereotype everyone that doesn’t believe that Big Brother should be everywhere for “our own good”.

46

@bing, I agree that there needs to be checks and balances in government, If I am correct, a red light or speed camera only takes your information when you trigger a violation. A bank has security cameras, big cities have cameras, we are on camera from the point we step out of the house to the point we walk back in. Cameras are everywhere and are not going away, many cars have gps tracking on them, they can tell where your at via your cell phone, what difference does a red light camera that only takes your picture if you blow a red light make?

Should we do away with all cameras?

Should we all drive old cars that have no gps units in them?

I am smashing my cellphone, driving the car into a lake and putting a tin foil hat on.

Please give me an example of how red light cameras infringe on your rights, specific examples of how red light cameras could be a bad thing. I’m serious, please show me how they infringe on your privacy and rights, I am having a hard time seeing it. Who knows, you may change my mind.

47

^ A man was photographed going through a red signal.
The citation letter, on which the color photos are printed, was mailed to the address of the registered owner of the vehicle.
Wife opened letter and sees girlfriend next to her cheating husband.

48

@robert gift

But if the guy didn’t blow the red light it never would have been an issue. That’s my point.

49

thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/01/jim-farley-backtracks-on-fomoco-tracking-drivers-gao-automakers-retain-gps-data/

We are all being watched. Im not sure I agree with this. A red light camera is a different animal, it only tracks you when you break the law.

50

A city near me pulled all of their red light cameras out last year. They were used for 3 years (the length of the contract the city had with whatever company makes them) and were then evaluated.

While there was an overall decrease in T bone crashes in each intersection, there was a greatly increased number of people being rear ended the same places as they slammed on the brakes to stop as the light turned yellow.

I guess they decided the benefit was offset by the increase in rear end crashes.

51

Just look at Robert’s experience-going through the light with the emergency lights on. Having to go to court to defend yourself because you are assummed guilty, plus the lost time, money, and fees associated with it all.

Plus, yes there is GPS in the car, but the data is private. That means you are the owner of the data and only can be accessed with permission or a court order. Data held by governments is a ticking bomb just waiting to be sold by a clerk or accessed by others for personal use. Been to Minnesota lately where personal information on govenment license servers were accessed thousands of times by law enforcement concerning women of interest. I feel the same way about license plate readers indiscriminately recording where every car was every time. Its no business of the government where people are unless they have probable cause.

You may be too young but Reagan warned that rights can be lost in a single generation if you are not vigilant at protecting them. He also warned of the take over of the health care system and Ike warned of the military-industrial complex after WW II.

52

@bing

wwmt.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/wwmt_-report-gps-not-private-you-think-17218.shtml

If you have onstar or a similar service, they always know where your car is, and how fast your going.
I have a gps in my prius, but there is no connectivity, so that info is private, If I connect to Toyota en-tune, then I doubt it would be private.

53

@bing

I agree, Robert going thru the light with emergency lights activated is an issue that needs to be addressed, that is just a poor application of the traffic cameras.

Some people are concerned that the red light cameras will expose a cheating spouse, I don’t have to worry about that either because I have never cheated. I guess I am a rarity these days.

There is a red light that I occasional go thru. I only do this if its clear and If I have a tailgater behind me. I never have had a tailgater blow thru the light with me, I always wonder if they are blatantly ignoring the speed limit, will they blatantly ignore other traffic laws as well, I don’t see the difference.

54

@RobertGift

“Wife opened letter and sees girlfriend next to cheating husband.”

As long as you don’t have a girlfriend on the side, you have nothing to worry about

55

Like I said, I don’t want to argue, but just because we are against these types of intrusions on our private moverments, doesn’t mean that we violate the law, cheat on our wives, and so on. That’s the lamest excuse for giving up your rights there is. You should know as well as I do that the squeeky cleanest person can be railroaded for something they didn’t do, given enough resources and the ability to go back enough years of data mining.

Our tour guide in Prague a month ago talked about how her grandfather was sent to a camp because he told a joke about Hitler in the bar. The Nazi ears were everywhere. Is this how you want to live? Not me. Freedom is not to be given up easily especially after all the people that died or were maimed fighting for it.

56

My legal concern is the initiation of a criminal case against a person without proper service, and without ID of the actor
just the vehicle, and who it happens to be registered to.

Service of a person requires the use of a hired, deputized individual, and thus serves as a natural limit in the intrusiveness of law and order: given that service has a cost, it puts a practical limit on a government’s ability to penny-ante the populace.

Also, positive ID needs to be made of the actor, not the vehicle, for obvious reasons. This is similar to civil forfeiture proceedings against property (which I also have a huge problem with.)

57

If the registered owner claims not to be the driver, “you must include a clear, legible copy of your driver’s license and sign the affidavit below.” in the NOTICE OF VIOLATION.
The Photo Enforcement Unit compares the images. If no match, the citation is “cancelled”. “You may identify the driver in the spaces below; however, this is optional.”

(Though I was in communication with the PEU about each citation by telephone, e-mail and US Mail, the Photo Enfarcement Unit had me served three times.
The cost of service “up to $59” is added to the fine.

The Photo Enfarcement Unit ate the costs - meaning taxpayers paid for my needlessly being served - when the citations were dismissed in court.)

58

@Bing wrote: " the squeeky cleanest person can be railroaded for something they didn’t do, given enough resources and the ability to go back enough years of data mining."

Just look at the case of Robert Oppenheimer.
A national hero (IMHO) humiliated by one thin-skinned bureaucrat.
Their relationship took a bad turn largely because Robert made a joke at his expense during a congressional hearing.

59

@Robert Gift: It isn’t enough that they offer the possibility of defense hinged upon denial of being the driver: they should be forced to determine identity up front.

You also shouldn’t have to perjure yourself to get the prosecution to meet the burden of proving it was you: they should have to prove it was you, regardless.

60

As far as privacy rights are concerned, I’ve never liked the argument that if you’re doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. That argument has been proven wrong many times. If the McCarthy era taught us anything, it’s that not having done anything wrong is not protection from persecution. In addition, our privacy rights don’t depend on innocence or guilt. Our constitutional rights are supposed to be sacrosanct. I am deeply disturbed by the erosion of our 4th Amendment rights. If only the 2nd Amendment and 4th Amendment were wrapped up in the same statute, because there seems to be plenty of support for protecting the 2nd Amendment, but relatively little support for the 4th.

Having said that, I don’t think our constitutional privacy rights apply to this conversation unless we change the subject and start talking about illegal search and seizure. Traffic laws are in a class all of their own for a reason.

What I find equally troublesome are people who insist they have privacy rights in public, especially those who refer to “Big Brother” or other aspects of George Owell’s 1984. Those types of comments usually come from people who didn’t read 1984, and it’s evident because in that book, the true overreach was that Big Brother reached into people’s homes and exploited their deepest fears, following them wherever they went, both in public and private. That’s a pretty important distinction. Having read Orwell’s books in high school, and having revisited them as an adult, I regard Orwell as a propagandist. It’s most evident in the animated movie Animal Farm.