@RodKnox.
The problem with using these types of cars as trucks is, you have to decide between people and payload. If there is an acceptable box size, there will be no room for people with their usual 700 to 800 total weight capacity.
There are costs associated with making trucks that have nothing to do with size. When a maker tries to make a smaller truck, the cost comes out close to the full size which is why they sell so poorly compared to them. An SUV based u body faces the same challenge. Look at the Ridgeline. It costs as much as the highest end Tacoma…the lower ends out sell them making them poor profit makers. Ridgeline are marginal sellers, great trucks but you can’t be all things to everyone which they try to be with out separate models in truck lines.
Now, if CAFE standards were 40 mpg for all light trucks…that will be the biggest driver of truck size. Then, we may get our wishes…but we will have to down size our expectations too.
I agree that RWD in a pickup is better, but for urban hauling duties, not 100% necessary. If I’m hauling mulch or straw bales or my friend’s recliner, the drivetrain isn’t going to hinder me no matter what layout it is. If I’m hauling a heavy load of rocks up the side of a mountain, then sure, FWD is going to suck. But most of the pickup bed is going to be between the wheels, so you will not be lifting the drive wheels off the ground when you load the bed unless you’re particularly inept at it.
As to the people vs payload debate, honestly people should not be buying pickup trucks to haul lots of people around. If you want to haul lots of people around, you should buy a car. Or a minivan. This goes back to my general annoyance with the pickup-as-primary-vehicle-fashion-statement. I miss the days when the people who drove pickups were the people who needed to haul things around. I think it’s absurd that we’ve gotten to the point where people are driving pickups with carpeted, teak-lined beds.
I suspect that there are a lot of people out there who would love to have a small pickup option. And “poor” Ranger sales in the end do not dissuade me, because in the end the Ranger was a gas-guzzling loser that lost out to its bigger brethren in every category except mileage, and that not by enough to worry about. Of course people bought the F150 because it was close to the same price, and did almost everything better because the Ranger had not had a significant redesign in more than 10 years.
And “poor sales” is relative - even as much as the Ranger sucked at the end, 70,000 people bought the thing. I bet if the Ranger had been good, a lot more than 70,000 would have wanted one.
One thing that baffles me about American businesses - not just the car industry - is that often they’ll either redesign a successful product so that it doesn’t appeal to people like the old one did (see: 4th gen Acura TL) or they’ll leave a product in the doldrums for over a decade and then be amazed that people don’t want technology that’s 1/3 as old as they are. And then they’ll come out and say “see? There’s just no demand for this!” Sure there is, if you’d build a good one.
Fine, but even with relativly light load rating, someone will be tempted to use that 800 lb max like they did withthe VW then find out they stink. You are talking about a truck that can only handle light loads. Get a utility teailer and haull with it with the family compact. That’s all they are good for. As you approach their maximum weight, the manufacturers will get really nervous, especially in snow where they will just sit there and spin on the slightes grade. The reluctance to build them isn’t for fear of loads you discribe, it’s for the guy who ALWAYS pushes the limits, simply bescause the space is there. If they sold, they would be making them. Rwd is better for trucks…it’s that simple.
I don’t compare the Ranger to a fwd truck. They are different animals and a Ranger was useful in ways a fwd truck will never be. Btw, I used to deliver mulch, by the ton. When wet it can be very heavy and filling a truck bed, even dry, it can hurt handling and traction while a rwd is actually enhanced in both areas. One is a potential liability, one is not. We cn’t argue with physics. If car companies thought they could make money on them, they would sell them…they can’t. That’s because people tried and they failed the test of time and money. Toyota continualyl monitors the wishes of their customers through forums and direct comunication. There just isn’t enough people who want these things…now. It’s the same with other customers.
But then there’s still my contention that if not for the easy money available for financing we would find a significantly different mix of models on dealers’ lots. How many $35k pickups would be sold if financing was limited to 24 months and 20% down was necessary? Those 4 cylinder Rangers and Hyluxs would take center stage if the Fed brings the prime rate into reality.
The biggest reason they stopped making the Ranger was the safety and CAFE standards needed to update the truck to make it salable in the US. Ranger may have sold well but once modernized the price would have risen too much. A truck made today had to be at least equvalant to Toyota, Nissan and Colorado size and motivation, not to mention the new economy standards. . That engineering has all been done for car based SUV and a revamped small truck will have to come from that model not existing bigger trucks.
One problem is that some of these trucks have been bloated into uselessness with their extremeness. Say for example, you want to pick up a bed full of firewood. Do you really want to load that into a bed that’s chest high, or would you rather load it into the bed of a 1950’s era pickup truck with a bed that’s low enough that you can sit on the tailgate without jumping up to it?
Which truck would you rather load a washer and drier onto?
A load of hay bales?
Jed Clampett’s 1922 Buick flatbed truck was actually a more useful vehicle than some of these pimped out mega-trucks.
It was somewhat peculiar at the time but worked well delivering groceries to homes around town. The dealer wanted to sell it and left it with us for a couple of weeks but dad bought a Falcon Ranchero instead.
Now, if CAFE standards were 40 mpg for all light trucks........that will be the biggest driver of truck size. Then, we may get our wishes.......but we will have to down size our expectations too.
A truck of usable size simply won’t get 40 mpg on account of the fact that the necessary vehicle shape (tall, with an abrupt drop to an open bed) has the aerodynamics of a barn door. If CAFE was pushed sky high, the automakers would probably react by selling all trucks standard with a chintzy “fastback truck cap” to improve aero (that owners would immediately remove upon purchase, a la Subaru Brat seats).
Come to think…why DON’T trucks come with a “throwaway” fastback? The cost of making an ABS molded cap, vs. the increased number of high-margin trucks that could then be sold…hmmm…
A usable bed has to be large enough to accomodate a snowmobile up here, or even a smal ATV. We actually use trucks as trucks. My neighbor just got rid of his smal single axle dump bed he used to move his loader around ( 11,000 lbs). locally. He is now using a GMC half ton with less effort then his dump truck. They are that big and capable. Most people buy these things because they have a capability that many will never use but is there just in case. Meanwhile, their mileage is as good if not better then midsize trucks. Lastly, they ride and handle better.
My midsize can’t even approach the capabilities of all my neighbor’s full size. In reality, trucks less then midsize are no more usable to most of the people then a compact SUV and a trailer. They are actually less. Why buy a toy truck that will struggle with 800 lb load when you can just buy a trailer for less then $1k and tow twice that weight behind your existing car. It makes no sense to buy a toy truck unless you deliver flowers or golf clubs for a living. Our local hardware store has rows of utility trailers and they sell like hot cakes till the next load comes in.
It’s not unusual for base engine full size trucks in 2 wd to now get 25 mpg highway. That 's why there is no market for these anymore then the Rancheros. People are just more “practical” about carrying their toys around.
A lot of people buy the full sized trucks for their towing capacity more than hauling capacity. It used to be that “camping” meant roughing it and pitching a tent. Today, it means living in a huge air conditioned trailer for a week or so.
It never made sense to me. The money spent on an RV can buy a lot of nights in a hotel room.
B.L.E,I always said,“I don’t mind camping,if I can go home and go to bed” an RV is almost in the same catagory as a boat.
As usual Dag,has pretty well summarized the Zeitgeist and reality of the times,My brothers heavy duty Silverado 4x4 weighs within a ton of what most old gas powered single axles weighed ,with much more power(8.1 litre BB) and allison automatic,new pickups are absurd,little need for lower class medium trucks now,only bad thing is,non CDL drivers are driving vehicles with close to CDL limits and many dont understand the dynamics of stopping and descending mtn grades
Yeah, Kevin, but most pickup drivers don’t haul anything heavy at all. They just want to look manly on their way to that office job where they teach computer keyboards who’s boss. There is one guy in my neighborhood that actually does haul heavy equipment with his stable of one ton vehicles. But he rebuilds them as well as the heavy equipment he hauls, so I think he knows what he is doing.
For many of us our vehicles are more valuable as status symbols than for their utility. In some regions trucks are scoffed at as menial while in other areas a man would as soon walk as be seen driving anything else. Hummers are highly regarded by some in my area and they are mechanically just 1/2 ton Chevrolet Suburbans but people paid premium prices for the image.
JT,I had an acquaintence that got killed when somebody was driving one of those,just barely under CDL rental trucks,this driver plowed into my Friends dump truck when He was parked waiting to unload I presume,hard to tell how fast this other Guy was going when He hit my friend(My Friend was a good fellow) a heavy truck is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands) Lot of kinetic energy in a fast moving 13 ton vehicle-Kevin
And speaking of drivers in over their heads, @kmccune, when driving down the California Coastal Highway the rented 24’ + motorhomes towing a small car were numerous and when negotiating a turn in the southbound (ocean side) lane meeting one was often a white knuckle experience. It’s a beautiful drive but no one should experience it while learning to drive a house on wheels.
I was perusing the Caterpillar Truck engine site once upon a time and they had a section for engines to move these behomeths,they went into how much power you needed.It seems you you had to factor in and allow for the power consumed by the cooling fan for the engine,it seems the parasitic drain was on the order of 50-75 HP,depending on the application,no wonder E fans help acceleration. @Rod,I saw a humungous RV.headed toward twisty RT250,towing a trailer,holding a Dodge Dakota,with a ATV,in the bed(bet that was fun)
At the very least the rookie RV drivers should all be forced to only drive northbound on CA Hwy. 1. That puts them away from the edge of the cliff. I love the trip (especially southbound) and make it every few years, but generally in the winter, when the traffic is a lot lighter and the chances of ending up in a fogbank are a lot lower. During the summer there are days when you can’t see anything at all and it’s unpleasantly chilly.
But late September and early October have the most reliably nice weather on the California coast, almost always clear and mild, with really great weather inland, too. I always encourage visitors to come then if they can. The only crummy part is that the waterfalls in Yosemite are at their lowest flow, with some completely dry. Can’t have everything.
I think we have an eclectic group here. Some prefer that people only buy trucks with their poor mileage if they actually use them as trucks…but by the same token, I know those who own and drive a 400 hp sports car they will never use either to it’s fullest extent. Some of us just go for rides for the shear pleasure of driving while “wasting” more gas then our neighbor’s truck does just sitting there. .We all drive cars that reflect our personalities, style and general enthusiasm for driving.
I drive a truck which is used as often in ways not having anything to do with it being a truck.Would I own a third car and use it more for economic travel ? Sure, but that would be a waste of money running three cars. If some one wants to penalize themselves driving a pick up around they seldom use as one just because it makes them feel macho, I don’t care. They pay for the privilege at the pump. We all make that choice.
Personally, I feel better complaining about the the more then 300 million guns out there in public. Most, like trucks, people don’t really need or shouldn’t have because they have no rational use for them or many are are just unqualified to use them. I would rather do that then worry about all the extra trucks people don’t use, sitting in their driveway.
There are 254 million registered vehicles in the U.S. and maybe 50 million are pick up trucks. I think we have “more” to complain about with the guns. But then, this IS a car forum. Funny, the guys on the truck forums complain about little whimpy cars.
My neighbors have no children, and drive a Honda CRV (hers) and a Nissan Titan truck (his).
She works as a business manager in town and he works out of his house dealing in sophisticated electronic devices. The truck is used to tow their boat and a trailer for their ATVs in winter. The have a mountain cabin on the lake.
They are frugal and environmentally conscious in every other way, and I don’t think the truck uses any more gas than a normal car used by a daily commuter.
Personally, I feel better complaining about the the more then 300 million guns out there in public. Most, like trucks, people don't really need or shouldn't have because they have no rational use for them or many are are just unqualified to use them. I would rather do that then worry about all the extra trucks people don't use, sitting in their driveway.
This morning I did smite 45 clay birds, missed 5, with my “useless and unnecessary” shotgun in the Saturday morning trap league. Unlike extra cars and trucks, it costs me absolutely nothing to not use it.
Just a short way from the place I go to shoot trap and skeet is another club where people fly radio control airplanes. Guess which place has sent more people to the emergency room.
Just for fun, pretend you are shopping around for a homeowner’s insurance policy and mention that you have a small firearms collection and see what that does to your rates.
Then do it again pretending you have a backyard swimming pool.
