Agreed, you’re not a criminal just because you’re having an interaction with the police. I disagree with the “they signed up for it theory”, though. Let’s say you’re a female officer, and a lightweight one at that. Or, a smaller guy. Doesn’t really matter. Now let’s say you give an order. They don’t comply. Are you going to be scared, training or no training? Now what? Do we fight it out? Being armed doesn’t really matter. You’re unarmed and outweigh me by 100 lbs and want to fight? Should I shoot? If I don’t have a tazer, you bet your ass I would. You can’t 100 percent take the human element out of it, and you’re asking a hell of a lot out of a cop, in my opinion. I believe adrenaline and fear cause a lot of these issues (we agree), but that’s a natural human response to “my job is to tell them to do X, they didn’t do it, now I’ve got to MAKE them do X”. If people respected the police and did what they were told to do (they used to more so than they do now, I think), adrenaline and fear wouldn’t come into play. People are supposed to do what an officer commands. That’s why the police carry guns. That’s why force is an option for them.
I honestly don’t think it’s a black vs white thing like the media portrays. Have any unarmed white guys been shot this year? You don’t know? Me either. Nobody cares. It doesn’t fit the narrative.
As for the rest of what you said, I don’t really think it addressed my comments. Not sure. Long day working at the scrap yard being a white privileged guy.
Long story short, I think the media makes race an issue more than race is really an issue. Is there racism? Certainly. But you can’t really outlaw ignorance. It would be nice, but there’ll always be someone doing, thinking, believing something they shouldn’t.
Interestingly, somehow soldiers manage to by and large not commit war crimes while fighting, and they’re exposed to a helluvalot more immediate danger than cops are. Think maybe there’s a lesson in that?
I’ve already given you several examples of people who were either complying, or in custody and subdued, and yet they got killed anyway. Explain that.
And there’s the problem. Cops do not carry guns so that they can shoot anyone who declines to obey their orders. If you’re asserting that they do, then absolutely we should defund them and replace them with people who carry guns for defense, not “I’m mildly annoyed that this guy disobeyed me so I’m gonna waste him.”
And BTW, people are only required to follow lawful orders of police. Again in my previous career I was routinely given unlawful orders by police, from “stop recording me” to “media has to leave the area even though we’re allowing the rest of the public to be here.” I didn’t obey because those were not orders they were allowed to give. Guess it’s a good thing they didn’t think their guns were to force compliance.
Yes. In Arkansas, just over a week ago. And interestingly, no one said anything about “oh well if the guy had only complied…” Instead, they fired the cop as fast as they could. Kinda like when a White woman was shot in Minnesota - they fired that cop double-quick, and then prosecuted and convicted him just as fast. And this was close to the same time that the cop who shot Philando Castile was found not guilty for doing the same thing, but to a Black guy.
My narrative is that cops are too quick to shoot. That they also have a (statistically shown) tendency to interact with Black people more often (and no, not because Black people commit lots of crimes) means that it’s not unsurprising that they’d shoot more Black people than White people. That Black people have a (again statistically-shown) more unpleasant experience with the justice system than White people means it’s also less likely that a cop who unnecessarily shoots a Black person will face the kind of penalties faced by one who unnecessarily shoots a White person.
But the core of the problem I’m talking about is that cops are trained to be scared of their own shadows, and then conditioned to start shooting the minute something frightens them. We have to put a stop to that.
“Even though most cops don’t abuse people, they tend to close ranks”.
You are correct in the way that Police Officers hold a position of authority, so they should be “beyond reproach”, but doesn’t every profession do the same? Did you ever hear a doctor say “he messed you up with that that surgery. You should sue him. I got your back”. Isn’t it the same thing?
That could work for the future but it would take years to get all of the millions of converters still on the road and in, warehouses, parts stores dealers junk yards and scrapyards out of the way.
Soldiers are not cops. Apples and oranges. Do you think soldiers do things that the media never sees?
I’d have to see the actual cases. Most times people aren’t complying. If they are, fine. Prosecute the cops. Black or what doesn’t matter. Lawful orders, agreed. That can change during an investigation. Is asking you to stop bolting your heat sheild back up lawful? Depends on the circumstances.
Any other examples? I happen to work with a guy whose BIL (white) was shot to hell. By the cops. He was running, so it’s kinda on him in my opinion. But, no, he didn’t deserve to die.
Black folks commit a far higher percentage of violent crimes according to the percentage of black populous vs white. Is that racist? No. Just a calculated fact. Does that make shooting them ok? Hell no. Does that make being in guard understandable? I’d say yes.
I grew up pretty poor in the “racist” south. I’ve got some stories. Some good, some really bad. I tend to think it’s a helluva lot better than it used to be. PM me if you want to discuss real life experience. If you want to continue with the media narrative, I will give up.
So that goes back to the way children are raised at home. When I was younger I got brought home (I forget why) by a patrol car once. Only once. By the time my parents got done with me, I decided that I would have been better off in prison.
None of this “why are you harassing my son” crap.
I got the ever lovin s*** kicked out of me. That’s not right either. Effective, though. No, I don’t advocate real abuse.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. The govt is an arm of God. Etc. it’s all in the Bible if you’re down with that. If you’re not, that’s ok too. I just see things differently than I once did.
I really like MLK’s “content of their charscter” speech. Perfect wisdom.
I don’t advocate beating children either (although a smack to the back of the head as a “wake up call” is effective). I do advocate teaching children to respect authority figures (teachers, police officers, even crossing guards). There is a time and a place to express yourself if you feel that you have been treated unfairly.
IMHOP there are two types of parents 1 to permissive 2 have no idea where or what the kids are doing neither one is right there needs to be a middle ground in there some where.
I agree, but it is being civil and a very constructive debate. I like to see differing objectives because the media is kinda screwy. Probably doesn’t belong here though, but still glad you let it go a little long.
@tcmichnorth I don’t disagree with you. It’s been pretty civil. Hey, I have opinions on this stuff, too. But for now we have to keep it broadly car related.
Apologies for getting off topic. I knew we were straying, but I enjoyed the conversation.
We are not buying cat converters at all right now from individuals (we will still buy from a shop, etc) due to the high volume of thefts. I see what they were trying to do by not buying them, but it kind of leaves a guy in a bind if he has a legitimate converter that he took off his car. His only option is to give it to the shop, which gives him nothing for it, then they sell it for a pretty nice bonus. That’s kind of like back door theft in a way. I had to have the converter replaced on my wife’s Toyota and I was adamant that I wanted the old one! Back when I had it replaced on my Dodge 20ish years ago, I didn’t even know they had any real value, so that shop made out pretty good.
It’s pretty hard to know if one’s stolen or not if someone brings one in. If they’ve just got one, I generally didn’t have any red flags go up. If they’ve got several off of several different vehicles, that’s obviously more suspicious. I used to ask a few questions. “This one came off a Toyota, right? (Knowing all along it came off a GM truck), for example. Then go from there. We follow all the laws, hold the check 3 days, get their ID, etc., so I don’t think we bought many stolen ones anyway. The stolen ones mostly wind up at a less legitimate yard where they illegally pay cash (and about half the amount they should), keep no records, etc.
I think a multi stage action is the best because this problem is not just the USA problem it because the amount of money from these converters is high in the hundreds a cargo container full will make hundreds of thousands, on a recycling ship to china or where ever a scrap metals recycler is located and will sell to brokers in China or Where ever for these rare elememts. China owns all the mines now and even mining under water for Precious metals, they are looking into outer space now. Putting your vin# on the CAT along with putting CAT security will be needed now not only in Colorado but California. If it takes 5 minutes to make hundreds it will not stop soon.