@MikeInNH
"Since as you stated several times here you can’t even buy a Toyota or Honda because there isn’t a dealer near you. So you have nothing to compare the quality of your GM vehicles to."
I have relatives with Asian cars and I’ve owned foreign cars, too.
I really am not interested in comparing my vehicles. I don’t have problems with them. I really enjoy owning and operating them very economically and reliably. So your comparison on quality is meaningless. Just reading this forum lets me know that my cars are ahead of the pack. I don’t particularly over-maintenance them, but rather just give them regular service myself and drive them. If I had problems with any of them I’d be interested in something else.
I’ have nothing against Asian cars. My brother-in law tried a Nisssan Pathfinder. My sister has a Hyundai (I work on). When my son was recently interested in a Subaru and asked for advice, I helped him, I didn’t discourage him. That’s what he wanted and that’s what he bought.
No offense, but some guys are recalling cars of years past and problems they had and have never gotten over them. I personally don’t feel there’s much difference in reliability (that’s what you’re concerned with, right?) amongst any modern cars, with some particular engines, transmissions, etcetera, for each manufacturer being better than others. Whatever the make, model, one has to do some homework.
I keep an open mind on this, as stated above. Do you? It sure doesn’t seem like it. CSA
Too many Kids ,too many cars,the resource footprint of a large unnecessary vehicle ,is well huge,people can argue all they want about the necessity of having an expedition or Suburban,but when I see one of these humongous things hauling around a 130 # soccer or horse mom,with no one else in the vehicle and the hitch probably never been used ,I have to cry foul.
Sooner or later people will have to step up and start taking responsibility for their actions ,legal or not.Every person deserves the chance at a decent standard of living ,but it seems to me some people have used up way more then their allotment of chances , in america our petroleum guzzling vehicles and energy splurging lifestyle consume an inordinate amount of the worlds resources .Who cares if we have 100 yrs of fairly easy petroleum left ,does that give us the right to deplete in another Century ? I say thee nay !
We actually eat petroleum now so to speak (I lament the loss of all the sustenance farms that used to be around here ) will we let our table fare be consumed in the cylinders of an internal combustion engine and exit the exhaust pipe while more and more people start to go hungry ?Looks like thats is what is going to happen,but I predict this,the way things are going we will run out of potable water and topsoil ,long before the petroleum is depleted.
So your comparison on quality is meaningless. Just reading this forum lets me know that my cars are ahead of the pack
Good for you…because you’re NOT the norm. I didn’t start buying foreign cars…they were far and few back in the 70’s. GM was the only manufacturer I even considered back then…but after owning Toyota, Nissan and Honda vehicles…I found out how unreliable GM vehicles actually were. My brother-in-law was a huge Ford man for over 30 years. Finally saw the light 10 years ago…Honda man all the way now. My other brother-in-law is a retired Chrysler plant manager…owns 2 Toyota’s and a Honda. It’s amazing all the MILLIONS of GM, Ford and Chrysler buyers who switched to foreign vehicles. I haven’t heard it the other way around.
I keep an open mind on this, as stated above. Do you? It sure doesn't seem like it.
It’s quite obvious that you don’t keep an open mind and never have…and obviously never will. I looked at the GM lineup when I bought my new Highlander…have you read the reliability ratings of the GM suv’s???..it’s pitiful. If you think they’re on the same level you are looking at the data with blinders on.
From the sound of Mike’s 9:05 post, we had similar experiences. After I bought my first Toyota in '76 I realized just how bad my '72 GM really was. When I bought another GM in '95, after years of riceburners, I realized GM quality still wasn’t up to Japanese cars.
My kids got to grow up watching the difference… and my son won’t buy a GM. My daughter loves old cars… she just bought a '63 Mercury Comet in California in great shape.
Setting aside the issue of climate change (i.e.- speaking even to those who think its a hoax) don’t we have some obligation to conserve finite resources like oil and coal for future generations to use (YOUR grandchildren, great-grandchildren and beyond). Wasn’t it Al Lewis (Grandpa Munster) who said, “We didn’t inherit this country from our parents, we’re borrowing it from our children.”
In my local Union, we have a saying, “We Are Our Own Worst Enemy”. Meaning, when we get a good thing going, some loophole or work rule, some tend to abuse the privilege, and we end up losing it.
As far as the autoworkers and steelworkers Unions getting too greedy, isn’t that just human nature? Is the greedy Union any different from the greedy CEO who got a $10 million bonus last year and insists on receiving a $20 million bonus this year?
Ideally, you’d have a balance of power between the Union and management which would allow the company to earn a decent profit and be competitive, and allow the workers to have health insurance and a decent pension, but usually greed prevails and one side overpowers the other.
No Toyota homework is needed…pretty much ever. Most rock solid over engineered pieces of equipment I ever laid eyes on. Some Toy engines can easily push 3x their stock HP numbers with no modifications to their bottom ends… Just one example.
No one can argue the quality of Honda or Toyota… but if you have nice experience with GM…hey whatever floats your boat…whatever works. But I for one can promise you that Toyota and Honda will not disappoint their quality is backed by engineers with pride and even a Harri-Kari mentality if they miss the mark…so they’re pretty serious about it.
You will not find that here in the states…where good enough is the mantra of the day. This is not opinion or fiction…neither example
No one can argue the quality of Honda or Toyota...
Well...I think both companies are living on past glory. Toyota makes almost uniformly bland cars these days; they've had trouble with oil consumption/sludging in some of their recent engines, and the whole "sticky throttle" fiasco. Honda really never found a way to mate an AT to a V6 and have it last.
What these Japanese makes did, was make really good, small cars, at a time when the US makes had no clue how to do so, and, seemingly, no inclination to learn. (Even then, it should be noted, Japanese cars were often “lifespan-limited” due to mediocre rustproofing: there’s a reason why these cars caught on in CA much sooner than they did in the northeast.)
Don’t get me wrong: when I turned 18, in 1990, there weren’t many domestics on my “short list”: Detroit, at the time, made boring cars your dad drove (in the mind of an 18 y.o.), and some really dreadful small cars (Tempo/Citation/Ares, to name three.) But times have changed.
I hear ya @meanjoe75fan as we both turned 18 in the same year…the year I was daily driving my 80 Camaro with a 327 small block Chevy that I built myself…back then I couldn’t for the life of me understand why anyone wouldn’t want a Camaro for their daily driver…and I meant it. This was the year some of my friends were buying the new Toyota pickups and I just didn’t get it. Well many of those pickups are still on the road and that is no BS…they are all over 250K some 400K and run like Swiss watches with nothing more than PM performed…still all original… Know where all my American Iron is? I will let people guess on that one.
Well to each his own…I only see nothing but positive engineering decisions from those two companies…bland styling aside… Most of their recent issues if they even exist can more than likely be put upon the Nut behind the wheel or part suppliers if you ask me. No engine has any hope of living a normal life with these morons running 15K plus on a single oil change.
I can assure most people with a fair amount of surety that those two makes regularly see the 200K mark and many well well beyond. I can also say that you would be picking up the pieces of any GM by that mark…pieces all over the place…a piston here…a bearing there…etc. They have become the Bic Lighters of the auto industry…100K and its done…repairs would exceed vehicle value at that point in most cases.
Don’t get me wrong…Ive had my share of American Iron and I love machines with an almost childlike reverence but when I see multiple failures occur almost as if they were on a timer, when I see engines with their design roots in the early 50’s and many other items…its time to bail…and I don’t see this with the aforementioned makes…only in Murican makes…I wish it wasn’t so…I honestly do…it angers me, so Ive moved to better equipment. As of late Murica has gotten up with the times…but almost as a knee jerk reaction…this is something that should have happened LONG AGO. Makes me mad to be honest. I didn’t leave because of a fascination with Asian imports…I left for better equipment, and was duly rewarded.
I have an AT in my 2005 Accord EX V6. It has almost 160,000 miles on it and the transmission is fine. I change the transmission fluid at 30,000 to 40,000 mile intervals, and don’t baby it while I drive.
@jtsanders good on ya mate… Most of those transmissions give up the ghost well after that that mark…and that is when nobody does anything to help the transmission along in life. No fluid changes…nada. My Goodness…if you perform simple PM on that thing it will very likely outlast your interest in the vehicle! I see these factory systems make it beyond 225K with no help whatsoever…even then they still work…but that is abuse for sure. With PM…who knows how far she will roll. Every now and then a shift solenoid will die…and its a 5 minute job to swap the external shift solenoids and off you go again. Amazing…honestly.
Honda and Toyota never had to deal with the expenses our car companies had to deal with…and I honestly believe the money they saved went into better hardware. I mean since the late 80’s their engines have been stuffed with FORGED internals…forged pistons, crank, rods…ets Built…and I mean BUILT… You will not find many forged internals in our vehicles…maybe if a turbo is present but on a N/A application? Nope…try again.
My friend is still TRYING to kill a 90’ Acura Integra with an automatic. I mean its rough…sees constant city duty…and I mean Philth-adelphia City duty…which is to say like a war zone… It has 288K on it right now and is daily driven. I had to drive it last year and couldn’t believe how well it shifted and ran… I did the T-belt after much protest by the owner…but he trust my advice…he’s due for another actually. I also forced him to do a trans fluid swap about 5 yrs ago so…we shall see. They have no plans of abandoning reliable transportation. Its the perfect vehicle for where it lives…he is afraid to have something nice.
Heck, I think American makers have always been able to make a good car–provided you liked RWD, full-sized body-on-frame designs. It’s just when tastes changed, they got caught flat-footed, big time.
Well MJ ,I am no advocate for GM ,but I have known some mechanically inclined people to get Honda or Toyota longevity out of GM cars , that being said I used to go and stroll around the junk lot at the Volvo repair shops ,now these things had an undeserved reputation for longevity,the average mileage on the trashed junkers was about 120 K ,however those things would actually go multi hundreds of thousands of miles if maintained religously My take on a cheap car dying fast is that people that buy them just drive them in the ground and dont take care of them.
My brothers Toyota Tundra continues to amaze me by its reliability (he uses it in his business ,while the "Powerstroke " is nothing but a PITA parts eater .
LOL…that not exactly how it went @meanjoe75fan not by a LONG shot… But anyway…we all know what happened. Its an upsetting state of affairs all around… I am in agreement with you that we are certainly CAPABLE of making a good car…the rest is a mess ya’ll can sort out
@kmccune also makes a great point…no car will survive blind malace toward its operation…none of them. I have also seen super high miles from our vehicles (almost always a truck) and others…but sure if you just treat vehicles like you arent actively torture testing them…you are sure to see higher miles.
The failures I am talking about are ones where you have no control over the parts…like suspension bushings totally hollowed out by 50K…snapped or seized struts…toasted wheel bearings at 75K or less…weak driveshafts or weak wheels even. Things you cant normally help along with normal maintenance
“I can assure most people with a fair amount of surety that those two makes regularly see the 200K mark and many well well beyond. I can also say that you would be picking up the pieces of any GM by that mark…pieces all over the place…a piston here…a bearing there…etc. They have become the Bic Lighters of the auto industry…100K and its done…repairs would exceed vehicle value at that point in most cases.”
@Honda BlackbirdWhat? In the past decade or two I have NOT had a GM or Chrysler easily run beyond 200K with no major work and very little minor stuff. Like @jtsanders, I don’t baby the vehicles and give them minimal, but regular maintenance and I live in an area of severe weather extremes (-30s to +90s) and in a severe road salt/rust belt area.
I just did the 290K oil change on my 01 Impala LS 3.8L.
I agree with @meanjoe75fan, "But times have changed."
CSA
You are agreeing with me then CSA… No? At least that was what I was trying to say…did it come out wrong. As far as Im concerned we just said the same exact think. I was referring to “Those Two Makes” being Honda and Toyota…not any GM or Murican offering…no way Jose.
If you stated ““In the past decade or two I have NOT had a GM or Chrysler easily run beyond 200K with no major work and very little minor stuff”” Neither have I…you are saying that you have NOT had one of these vehicles easily run beyond 200K without Major work… I would have to agree… Is that what you are saying or am I confused? The way it is written it can sort of go either way…Maybe?
The way I see it and how it is written it appears we are in agreement Sir
I dunno, I guess I shoulda just shot my Riviera with 520,000 miles on it and put it out of its misery and my other Rivera with 350,000. It would have been fun to take the engine apart and look at it after that many miles since they were never apart before. Too late now, rest in peace.
Now I just got a recall notice today on my Acura for the air bag. Dang. Parts available sometime this summer-maybe. We were going to trade but now what? They said they wanted ours because they had a lot of cars they couldn’t sell because of the recalls so ours was prime. Not anymore.
We all have our experiences but I have to say that the electronics on my Pontiac is a heck of a lot more intuitive than the Acura. Almost need a manual every time I drive it, but it has been dependable.
I dunno…but in my estimation, domestic cars seem more likely to last a very long time. Consider that, sometime around 1988, every car manufacturer went from “angles” to “curves.” Almost as if on cue, across all the makes, angles immediately became passe–so it makes a good benchmark.
I know that, today, when I see an angular car, it’s typically a domestic. Generally a GM full-size, like a Cutlass or Caprice. A neighbor daily drives a Citation, and I occasionally see a blue K-Car tooling around town (in a cloud of smoke, but it’s still driving).
OTOH, I almost never see a 1984-86 generation Camry on the roads (it was my first ever car, so I tend to notice it when I see it). Same with the 1985 Corolla my dad used to own, or the 3rd gen Civic (1983-87). FWIW, I don’t see the Chevy/Geo Nova equivalent, either. And these cars–especially the Civic–were EVERYWHERE back in my high-school days. Now, whether that’s better rustproofing, better crash survivability, or something else, I don’t know. I just know what I see! (Getting pretty homesick to see a surviving Camry…heck, I think it’s been 3 years since I’ve seen one in its natural habitat.)
I guess it depends on where you live…There are HUNDREDS if not a few thousand of 1980’s Toyota’s, Honda’s and Nissans/Datsuns still running strong less then 20 miles of my house. Lawrence and Lowell MA are full of them.
K-Car - I haven’t seen one in decades…Might have seen one or two Chevy Citations in the past 10 years. And considering that the Citation was outselling many Toyota’s and Honda’s in the 80’s…yet I see far more Toyota’s and Honda’s around here.
I will have to respectfully disagree on some of that. Just from my own observations, the Taurus had a terrible reputation around here. I think it was mainly due to the throw away transmissions. It was a cheap used car because they never seemed to last longer than a few years. I have no data but just my own observations made me resolve not to buy one regardless of the cost. Then weren’t those Toyota trucks the ones with the frames rotting and needing replacement? I guess they all have certain issues, but frame replacement, really? Of course then there are the Ford models which I don’t recall which one where the wheel wells were rusting off. We had that discussion here whether it was design, Chinese steel, or some other factor, but I’m still scared of them.