Absolutely.
That’s What Started Mid-Engine Cars. I’ve Got 2 In My Driveway.
CSA
"That makes me ask, have other rear engine cars also tended to oversteer?"
Yup!
Whether we are talking about the extremely powerful 1930s Auto Union race cars, or the relatively powerful 1948 Tucker Torpedo (which preceded the Type 542), or the original version of the pathetically underpowered Chevy Corvair, the answer is…yes.
The difference from one rear-engine car to another is how well the drive axles and the suspension were designed in order to minimize the oversteer tendency. The Auto Union race cars had an absolutely fearsome death rate for their drivers until the company figured out that they needed to hire drivers who had never before driven a car!
That is why, toward the end of their program, Auto Union hired motorcycle racers who were unfamiliar with cars. Those guys could be trained to deal with the absolutely fearsome tendency for the Auto Union race cars to go into a spin on even gentle curves.
And, of course, GM’s failure to adequately notify Corvair owners of the critical need to use totally unorthodox tire pressures is what led to a lot of otherwise avoidable accidents with those cars.
When GM finally redesigned the drive axles and rear suspension of the Corvair, they managed to produce a very safe car with predictable handling. However, the original design had decidedly unpredictable handling, especially in light of the reality that most people were driving those cars with the wrong tire pressure–thanks to GM’s failure to highlight the critical nature of the tire pressure on those cars.
In the right hands, and with adequate training, oversteer is not a significant problem.
However, in the hands of unsuspecting drivers, it can be…deadly.
Speaking of tire pressure…why oh why is the Camry’s spare tire positioned in the trunk such it only fits with the side down that has the valve stem? To check the spare’s pressure and add air a few times a year requires unbolting the spare wheel from its sunken cavity in the trunk and wrestling it upright to access the valve. Why in blazes not mount the tire so the pressure can be easily checked with it still lying flat, bolted in place? Grrrrrrrrr. It’s already a chore to lift the trunk liner and remove the tray with jack and tire changing wrench out of the way to get at the tire but then the tire must be hassled with just to check the pressure. Okay not one of life’s important details but decidedly one of life’s irritations of the moment.
Rear engine cars with oversteer… Add a few more Porsche 911, VW Beetle, Tatra T603
Oh yeah, they oversteer. Early Porsche 911’s, lift off the gas in a turn, instant spin.
So to prevent oversteer one should continue to accelerate in turns?
More weight means more inertia. More inertia means slower response to a change in direction for a given force. Ergo, if you put more weight in the rear, the rear will respond slower than the front… resulting in a tendency to oversteer.
Early Posches were well known for easily swapping ends when they were pushed on curves. I love the early Porsches, but they weren’t the great handling cars they are today. However, in that era, most cars tended to wallow around curves, and you could DRIVE Porsches around curves, so back then they were considered really fun. It took decades of engineering and the use of different size radial tires front & rear before Porsche actually got the problem squared away.
Accelerate? Nope. That’ll transfer even more weight from the front to the rear, exacerbating the problem. And if you have enough torque to break the tires free, which will result in a guaranteed spin unless you have the skills to drift… and if you did, I don’t think you’d have asked this question.
The key to oversteer is smooth operation, maintaining balance, and accepting the fact that your car oversteers. Don’t try any sudden moves especially while in the curve.
“Accelerate? Nope.”
Maybe this is not correct, but my recollection is you can get out of a rear wheel spin out by forcing the tires in the rear to aggressively make you go forward, that does not apply to everyday car driving. But consider it a valid concept in my experience.
TSM, can you explain what you mean by letting a car drift through a curve?
@marntet I am sure tsm will give a better exlanation, in a drift all your tires are sliding in a curve to the outside and as improbable as it sounds your front wheels are actually turned opposite the direction you want to go!
Envision if you will the front tires properly aimed right in the path you want them to follow. Imagine that with that, the rear tires have high loads (large forces) pushing sideways on them, trying to get them to get back where they should be, but they’re going sideways. Now, if you will, imagine adding torque forces to the rear tires. That will reduce rear wheel traction even further.
However, for the sake of illustration, envision that the tires did bite harder into the pavement and push the car in the direction they’re aiming. And let’s imagine that the front tires kept their traction. What that would do is push the rear end across the track of the front wheels causing “fishtailing”. Once you get into a fishtailing situation in the middle of a curve, in a marginal traction situation, your chances of getting control if the vehicle again deteriorate. Remember that by punching the gas you’ve made the cause of the problem even worse. You’ve transferred more weight to the rear, reduced weight in the front, and made the difference in lateral forces even greater.
If you should start to lose the rear in a rear-engine car, the best action is to ease up on the gas and focus on keeping the front wheels tracking properly around the corner regardless of the attitude (sideways actions) of the vehicle’s body. That will transfer weight from the rear to the front, improving balance, and reduce speed, which will reduce the difference in forces that caused the problem in the first place.
Here is a typical sprint car accelerating through a left turn with front tires pointed to the right.
Notice where the engine is located. And that front wing. These cars are front heavy, especially with the added downforce of that wing, and by accelerating they actually improve weight distribution.
These cars are designed to do this. Rear engine cars aren’t.
Ah, okay. Exactly what I was taught but have mostly managed to avoid taking curves too fast so have been blessed to experience only two spin outs in 40 years driving and both those were from being run off straight sections of road.
Avoiding spins is the best approach by far.
I had one myself many years ago (about 1980) when I came upon a sheet of black ice at about 4am. I was going slow (thank God) down rt 2 in Mass, when my pickup just started to slowly spin around. I slowly slid slowly sliding down off the crowned road. Fortunately, nobody else was around and I was going too slow to cause any real damage. A cop came up next (this was before cellphones) and he almost slid off the highway on the same ice. I did manage to clip a roadsign (like a weed trimmer trimming a weed) and pop two tires, however.
At least you didn’t get hurt, TSM. Black ice is wicked.
Spoken like a true New Englander.
LOL. Oddly enough, I have dealt with more black ice per year on average in St. Louis than when we lived in New Jersey.
I thought rear engined cars were notorious for pushing? a little oversteer is fun,if you dont lose it.