This went way over my head. The whole series
eek. didn’t mean to offend.
indeed i was in search of someone who could for a fact inform me if there are “legal” CD copies, PDF format probably, out there. That one may have cheaply, i mean. paying the $90 the Corporation gets for it is simply beyond my means . . . and so on.
the silly word game was subsequential to something dear to my political heart–
which is, an inquiry in to the way one’s beliefs and even one’s “language” are controlled by a broadly prevailing set of circumstances, social, economic, and political.
free market, and capitalism are primary exhibits, as words, and as structures that do operate, in the objective world of human affairs. they give rise to commmonly shared, but quite unanalytically examined, notions–such as what is “just”, what is “legal” and so on.
i’d have been satisfied with answers to my inquiry, as strictly stated, regarding an affordable shop manual.
the presumptions that underlie all that flapdoodle about “copyright” somewhat gets my dander up. yep, i’m a hothead. more’s the pity.
cheers, tho, to you; you may return to riverun and HC & E . . .
snuck snuck.
Don’t worry about it, oldschool. Waddell would simply be called “eccentric”, except he doesn’t apparently have enough money to be called that.
aaaah, thank you, my good man. a bit sheer common sense.
i’m in yer debt for this.
what is “much to lose” is relative, however. i’m such a pinchpenny that i wasn’t willing to take the $16 chance on the item, without running it by this forum that i much respect, for feedback.
consistent with all my railing against the corporations’ ways, i suppose it would be the rare [immaculate] find, a CD that is Honda’s own authorized manual.
thanks for your note, in any case.
chow,
the shadetree hesitant
Is this the same seller?
If it is, then there sure appears to be a fair number of suckers floating around out there according to the Feedback comments. Go figure.
If I had to make a strictly wild guess I’d say this is probably not a factory scan but one of those cheesey generic Chiltons scan. Most large companies have people on staff whose job it is to go after infringement violations and Honda is no different. People used to infringe the crap out of the Harley Davidson motorcycle name until HD said they were going to drop the hammer on anyone who did infringe; and they did big time.
hello ok4450,
i just went to the URL you cited–
and yes, it appears to be the same seller.
here’s the eBay URL with the ad for the CD version of a honda shop manual:
thru eBay e mail route, i asked a question, and the “seller” wrote me an answer.
i copy details of the question to seller, below:
Subject: You’ve received a question about your eBay item, Honda Accord 2003 2004 2005 Factory Service Manual Part Received: Jun-01-08
From: shadetreemech Expires: Jul-01-08
To: jdm-auto
ItemId: 260246077277
Dear jdm-auto,
hi jdm,
do i understand right, that this is the honda factory shop repair manual, on a pdf file, on a CD or disk?
does this mean, essentially, that it is a scanned copy of the factory shop manual that Honda mechanics use in the honda service shops?
i’m interested, but i would like to speak to you or someone by phone before i buy one of these pdf digital books.
may i call you?
thanks–
“shadetreemech”
Item and user details
Item Title: Honda Accord 2003 2004 2005 Factory Service Manual Part
Item Number: 260246077277
Item URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260246077277
HERE’S THE DETAILED ANSWER i received from seller in my eBay mailbox:
Subject: You’ve received an answer to your question about item Honda Accord 2003 2004 2005 Factory Service Manual Part
Received: Jun-01-08
From: jdm-auto Expires: Jul-01-08
To: shadetree
ItemId: 260246077277
eBay eBay sent this message to shadetree.
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.
Seller has responded to your question about this item
Yes, the PDF file is on CD but not scanned. The quality of the file is very good.
- jdm-auto
Item and user details
Item Title: Honda Accord 2003 2004 2005 Factory Service Manual Part
Item Number: 260246077277
Item URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260246077277
End Date: Jun-28-08 22:22:46 PDT
From User:
jdm-auto (147)
98.7% Positive Feedback
Member since Aug-20-07 in United States
Location : WI, United States
thanks for your catch here, 0k4450; my question to seller was particularly to know that the PDF was not a Chilton’s or Haynes, that are notorious in my experience for being unreliable, inconsistent or incomplete graphical and mechanical documentation.
but i could imagine a PDF of the honda shop manual, and would prefer it over the hard copy. again, the point was, the $90 puts it out of my reach.
i do wonder, now, if eBay knows the bona fides on this “jdm-auto” seller. aside from matters of copyright, one wants to know what the product actually is–and the seller has been unresponsive to further questions i asked.
thanks,
shady reet
If it were me, I’d probably pass on dealing with the seller. You’re right, the Chiltons manuals are almost a total waste of poor quality recycled paper. Haynes is a shade better but nowhere near perfect. I’ve seen a few similar CDs and they were lacking; a lot.
The fact the seller has CDs about converting an engine to run on water and home conversions to HID headlamps would also be a reason to steer me away from them.
Anyone who cashes in on that water to gas scam is not to be trusted, and judging the Feedback by the number of people who have purchased the water to gas CD the sucker pool is pretty deep.
I pretty much agree with your post except that I have a slightly higher opinion of Haynes. I think it’s a decent general guide for those doing basic maintenance and repair. For $20 it at least gives an overview, better than operating blind.
The only reason I mention it is that those of you who are only looking for some idea how a muffler is installed or spark plugs are installed are, I think, much better off with Haynes manual than with nothing. I wouldn’t try an engine rebuild with it, but I don’t really think that’s its primary application.
i’m not saying they’re all the same, but i wasted my twenty dollars on a '91 mazda b2200 manual, in my judgment of what is adequate to show a simple R & R (in this case i think it was the timing belt i was wanting the pics on–clear and GOOD pics, at the right angles). I have had some good Haynes–but it’s a crap shoot, or crap chute hmmmm. some are ok, some not.
i’m talking about wanting to maintain a 2004 accord, cherry condition, at present. i will do the things that might arise that don’t take a major investment in sophisticated equipment. e.g., cv joints are veryu easy to replace or renew–but it’s good to have the clear documentation and pics for this. it just saves time.
Am I correct in my belief that factory service manuals are avialable in either paper or CD/DVD format? Its just a price issue? The troubleshooting flow charts in factory manuals have been of extreme value. Cant imagine working on a system that I have no practical experience without a factory manual (things like factory security systems come to mind) And then the invaluable service bullitens. Is there a service to subscribe to that keeps these items comming to you (maybe AllData) Just a price issue.
I’ve had both Chiltons and Haynes manuals for several cars. The Haynes manuals were better, but still not of much use for most of the work I’ve done. You’d probably be better off with a factory manual. The amortized cost is not bad if you keep your cars for a long time.
i am about to cry n’uncle on that one–i’ve found one library in the whole US, a public library i mean, that has a copy of the specific 2003-4 honda service manual for the accord, and of course it’s non-circulating. if i were in seattle, near where the lib is, i’d go there with my digital camera and photograph its pages–for my personal use. just as i check out books from libraries to read more than once. but most books are easily available to the public–
My interest is not exploit a DIY market for these dealer published auto tech manuals–the market for them wouldn’t even exist except for the preposterous corporate pricing scheme that limits their affordability! i do not mean, here, to raise another fracas on the ethical profundities (or clarities, rather) some parties imagine involved in copying instructional or diy material.
Thats copyright and intellectual property crimes to sell a PDF which is easily copied on EBay.
He knows this, and actually prefers to deal with such criminals, rather than enrich the “greedy corporations” that hold the copyrights.
Let’s see now. About $90 for a real shop manual. $10 for something that the seller won’t even bother to give you additional info on. “You buys your ticket—you takes your chances”. Now for that $90, you’re now finding yourself having to trobleshoot and then repair/replace, let’s say a crankshaft or camshaft timing sensor. Cost to have a shop do it: anybody’s guess depending on where you live. It’ll cost you at least $100 just to get your vehicle into the shop! Cost of you troubleshooting and repair/replacement of, say, the crankshaft sensor: under $200 maybe? (Sensors of this type are not repairable). Your real Honda book just paid for itself. Probably available in either PDF or on a disc. The crankshaft/camshaft references were just that–reference as an example. I agree that the Chilton’s/Haynes manuals leave a lot to be desired. I have had really good luck with the authentic shop manuals. One exception: I had a challenge with my dual crankshaft sensor and don’t have the shop manual for the '92 Olds Ciera. Tester pointed me in the right direction after all else failed. Neither Chilton’s nor Haynes even mentioned the troubleshooting symptoms/repair/replacement of this very vital dual sensor. IMHO, Haynes is better but having both has also saved me a lot of time because one of these publications always has a little finer detail than the other one. So I use both. Neither one addressed my issue of the dual crank sensor. AllData didn’t either. (Another huge “thank you” to Tester!). So buy your ticket and take your chance–or don’t buy a ticket at all. Get the real and absolutely legal Honda shop manual/PDF file/C.D. or whatever format turns your crank. ( I just couldn’t resist those last 3 words).
Talk about “gasbags”…
Even if the label applied, at least profhandy is literate, not mention coherent.
I tend to avoid piracy when I can, which may seem like a strange thing to say. I live in Piratesville. Here in rural Mexico, I don’t think legal music and movie discs are available. One would have to take a trip into Mexico City, perhaps, or maybe a big city in this state, I don’t know. And, in downtown Mexico City, a few blocks from Bellas Artes, one can buy any program, XP; AutoCad; etc;, for under $5 with cracker.
Things are changing, I am glad to report. My nephew who is more or less a computer admin person, works for the Mexico City government, which is pretty well dominated by his political party. His department has 500 computers. They need more computing power than they had, but they simply cannot afford all new computers. So, they converted this year to Linux, which keeps the old machines doing the latest things. He said they are well aware they can buy proprietary software downtown on the street for almost nothing, but politically their opponents would love to report them for piracy. So, they are eliminating the problem, both piracy and the need for new computers, by Linux.
I asked him if they had any special programs they absolutely needed. He said, yes, but they are written for Linux.
One step at a time.
I do not know if it is a hoax or not, but today via Digg, it was stated a group of thieves somewhere in the world has created malware which encrypts your entire HD, with 1024 bit encryption, and then gives you a message how to pay to have it opened up again. All personal stuff gone unless you pay. Family pictures; e-mails; you name it, unless you pay them. Three solutions: Back-up; Back-up; Back-up.
Okay, 4, get a Linux machine. Most of us are too tight to pay the $700 for a pre-installed Linux machine, unless you will accept one of those tiny new machines which come often with Linux, then they scream when they have problems getting it to work on a machine which was designed for Windows.
interesting. governments, quintessentially, have to worry about image, and almost no price will be too high to keep their perceived “rectitude” afloat. here i choose to hypothesize the presence, in the very ‘system’ of economics at play, capitalism. a magnificent variant of ponzi scheme. a way of keeping “capitalism” dominant is thru a collective consciousness, that inheres in the population that has grown up, for more than a few generations, without any profound questioning of its fundamental presumptions or terms.
Whether ‘right’ or ‘ethical’ in some absolute sense, the concept of copyright conforms with exigent principles of capitalism–because it asserts, a ‘legality’, that extends far beyond what is common sense or rational. For instance, if you take a simple case of a fellow strolling thru the park, whistling a tune, he is “inventing a song” and by great extensions you can have this fellow wanting money off of others, for his ‘claim’ that he ‘made’ it.
likewise, einstein ‘made’ a right fine theory–just to point out a variant case and another more humanely principled underastanding of the true democratic nature of ‘that which is intellectual’–
that is it to any common sense, NOT property.
neither thought, nor song, are property, or 'owned’
but this rational and common sense understanding [of what is ‘abstract’, and intellectual is hard won, in the face and enormity of the economic system that contrives and practices with “equations” that reduce all kind of thought and enterprise into a quantifiable monetized interchangeability.
that’s for starters. so that i ask you, why do you avoid piracy, as you say, when you can? what are the reasons you, who are not a government, constrain your desires, or perhaps even your existential needs, and don’t have them met, unless you can afford them by the ‘legal’ acquisitions.
you do see that this is a mechanism of exchange that enforces the idea that some people have more rights to certain things they choose to call property, that some others–and that the ‘right’ or ‘justice’ of this is dictated by the holders themselves, and no one else, of the economic system at hand–what we call ‘the game in town’.
a term used in gambling, and in a world of crap shoots.
as you are at some remove from the din of wondr’ous Murkia, i would be interested to hear your thoughts and views on this query.
and of course, to keep it honest, forum-wise i mean, i must ask you,
have you come across any PDF type CD versions of dealer factory service manuals, in your neck of the woods down south.
ademas, amigo, en que parte precisamente vives? naci yo en del rio, tejas–en la frontera, hace muchos anos; ya hoy dia, soy casi aislado con mi familia en circunstancias peorando, y brutas, de una economia que–gracias a los ‘republicanos idiotos’ principalmente, IMHO!–amenacen de tumbar el pais en su totalidad en una bancarotta. carajo, bato, chiguelo. es malo!
q.d.l.bendiga,
una sombrista
Your best bet other than pricy factory manuals, MOTOR manuals, etc. is a subscription to ALLDATA.
It’s 25 dollars a year with a 15 dollar per year renewal fee but it is miles beyond what Chiltons or Haynes offers.
ALLDATA has it broken down into categories with decent wiring schematics, troubleshooting and diagnostics, etc.
It’s not perfect and not as good as the factory books IMHO but well worth the money.
that’s a consideration, interesting to know ok4450. but i have to say, subscriptions, just off the top, to me are like drug addictions. i hate to start 'em; the better they are the worse i hate to enter into 'em.
if i knew i could “control” it, i’d be the more likely to give Alldata a whirl, maybe. but really i’d have to have a list in hand of ALL the parts of the generic service manual i intended to use before i’d put the first payment down, i think.
that might not be such a task, if’n i could look at a good table of contents of that erstwhile 2004 shop manual, to remind me of all i really do want to have the documentation for.
thanks.
shade.t.mch