Ellyellis,
the car would start enough for lights to come in the dash, does that mean anything? When AAA got there he tried to turn over the engine a few times, it would just “chug-chug” but not kick in.
@EllyEllis: “The idiot light only comes on when there is no oil pressure.”
Please to be defining “no oil pressure”.
Surely you mean “low oil pressure”?
Umm, I’m not sure what you mean by not seized up, I thought I made the clear.
I’ve written in previous posts that according to Honda, the cam seized due to lack of oil. Also the mechanic took off the valve cover for the head where the affected cam is located. By “affected”, I’m assuming the mechanic means “seized”. Is there another reason why the valve cover would have to come off to expose a cam? Is there another word I’m missing here?
To Everyone:
Still wondering about this question:
What I don’t understand is, and no one has explained…is that aside from the dry dipstick, why didn’t the engine show a lack of lubrication to the Honda Inspector?
If all the dis-assembly happened like I wrote in previous posts, how come a lubrication problem wasn’t easily seen?
How much further dis-assemble needs to happen?
And again, Honda checked the dipstick and that’s it. The car shop were the only ones that took things apart in order to present their findings to the Honda Inspector.
Transman,
I don’t understand your post. If the oil pressure sender malfunctioned, and the engine failed because of oil starvation, then my engine would be covered? Your post is confusing.
If the engine showed no sign of lubrication issues (confirmed by the mechanic and Honda Inspector) what else do you think they should look at?
Whitey,
I’m sorry, but we’ve been way past that question. Please read the comments.
Thank you.
I just went back and took a closer look. Others have asked the question, but you still haven’t given them an answer. I guess the answer to “When was the last time you checked the oil?” is “so long ago, you can’t remember.”
Perhaps many people don’t check their oil as often as they should, but that is no excuse. Many people engage in destructive behavior, but that is no reason to emulate them.
Whether or not the problem was caused by oil starvation, if you had checked it, you could have at least ruled it out as a cause. Who knows! You might have prevented this whole problem before it happened.
Please see Tom and Ray’s August, 2002, Column:
http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/2002/August/09.html
“Why didnt the engine show lack of lubrication”??
Couldnt tell you without actually looking at it. Hard for us to say here. One thing to remember here though. We do know for sure that the engine only had 1.5 quarts of oil in it. We do know for sure that an automobile engine can not run on 1.5 quarts of oil. We do know for sure that one of the camshafts seized. Obviously the engine was oil starved, and last but not least, the oil light is inoperative. Honda should have no arguments there. The only question here is, is Honda warranty going to cover this?? When I was at the dealer, I know they would not cover something like this. Like I said earlier, check your warranty paperwork real good, if it will cover engine replacement due to a faulty oil sender then you’re in luck. If not then see whether Honda will go half and half with you on the repairs since the car is only 3 years old. I would also have the shop drop the oil pan and remove a couple of bearing caps. Rod bearings will show oil starvation real good.
transman
If the cam seized as you were told, that would immediately stop the engine, and no more damage would be done. To find further evidence of lack of lubrication, major disassembly would be required.
Sorry, I’ll try to clarify what I said. The oil pressure sender is what turns your red oil light on on your dash. If your oil light didnt come on then there is either a problem with the sender, the light itself, or maybe even the dash (Cluster). Your engine obviously got critically low on oil, enough to sieze a camshaft and the light never lit and still doesnt light when the ignition is turned on. You had no idea the engine was at a critical stage because of a inoperative warning light SO… if the engine failure can be linked to that faulty light and your warranty will cover engine replacement under those circumstances then you are in luck. Check your warranty paperwork real good. Even if the top end of the engine showed no sign of lubrication issues, you still know for sure that you only had 1.5 quarts of oil in the engine. Ask any technician, ask the Honda rep this: Will an engine run on 1.5 quarts of oil?? If they say yes, then I would like some of what they are smoking…LOL Have the shop drop the oil pan and pull a couple of rod caps and look at the rod bearings, they should be scored.
There’s also going to be a finger pointing issue here, Honda warranty will say its the oil change place that should pay but there is still going to be the question of why didnt the oil light illuminate?? and is the oil light problem a covered item in your warranty?? You have a real mess here.
transman
What were the diagnosis codes? Probably relating to a camshaft sensor, or a variable valve timing code.
Here is my theory, its possible that the original place that did the oil change left the drain plug a bit loose, and maybe didn’t even put in enough oil. Over the three months 3xxx miles it leaked slowly and since the oil was never checked it was never caught.
You are reading too much into the 50% oil life remaining, there is no actual sensor that monitors the oil condition on this vehicle from what I can tell, the percentage is derived from an algorithim so it is possible that there can be no oil, old oil or turpentine in the crankcase and there would be no indication otherwise. However Since Hondas saying there is a sensor in the bottom of the pan I suppose there could be ( Usually only fairly high end cars have this)
When an engine starves for oil the first thing to generally lock up is the upper end of the engine, and with only 1.5 quarts in the pan the engine probably was starving everytime you took a turn or stopped quickly.
If you would have checked the oil per the owners manual recommendations or even at least once a month you probably would have been alerted to a problem, it is your responsibility to check the oil, or to bring it in every few weeks and have it checked.
Fwiw, I am a former ASE certified L-1 Master tech, I also have a class A CDL and have mastered the art of pre trip inspections, which always includes checking the oil. Now I am not saying you should check the oil every day, or even every fuel fill up, I usually check mine every other fuel fillup or every few weeks. It takes 30 seconds at the most and is the drivers responsibility.
Where I work we had to rent a International Bucket truck for a month while one of ours was having the boom serviced, there was a big sticker on the drivers door that said “ALL FLUID LEVELS ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE DRIVER” So basically if that truck would have run out of oil guess what, the leasing company probably would have made my company eat the bill for a new engine.
Everyday people drive without their seatbelts, most have no negative effect, some pay the price. Some people drive and never check thier oil, sometimes they pay the price, you took a gamble and you lost, I am not trying to attack you or kick you while you are down, the situation sucks. I would review my owners manual and follow thier checking routine and make it a habit from now on.
I have skimmed the many posts, can’t read all word for word it would take forever. I didn’t see anyone discussing why the indicator lights didn’t come on.
I believe this car has an “oil monitoring” light and an “oil pressure” light. The monitoring light tells the condition of the oil, not the volume of oil in the motor. The cars does not have an “oil level” guage, very few cars have such a guage.
The oil pressure light only goes on when the pressure approaches 0 and indicates no oil is circulating. All motors run oil pressures at 40 or more when turning 2,000 rpm or higher, which is the case as you motor down the highway. At idle the oil pressure drops to something close to 5 or a bit higher. Therefore the oil pressure light is set to go “on” only when the oil pressure drops below a very low number like 4 or lower.
The OP didn’t see an oil pressure light because there was some small amount of oil and it was enough to produce oil pressure and keep the light off. But the oil pressure wasn’t nearly close to 40 and therefore not enough oil was getting pumped up to the top of the motor where the valves and cams are and they broke down from lack of lubrication.
So who is at fault? I consider this a “mechanical accident”. All accidents can be avoided or reduced when you study the contributing factors.
The biggest factor here is someone messed up the installation of the oil plug. It was either too loose and worked its way out over time due to the vibration of the engine. Or, it was overtightened and the threads were stripped causing the plug to come loose and work its way out. The OP needs examine the oil pan and the oil plug very carefully for evidence. The entity most at fault is the oil change shop. They won’t take responsibility so the OP may have to take legal action.
The next contributing factor is not noting the oil level in the motor was decreasing. Although this is not a good practice most driver’s don’t check oil levels between oil changes. They should, but they don’t. This is one of those lessons learned the hard way. Checking your regular parking spaces for oil drops is another good practice. If the OP had seen oil droppings that can trigger pulling the dipstick to see if the oil level is down. In this case the OP was looking for the car to signal (with a warning light) that there was a problem, no warning light then drive on. Motors can, and do, burn themselves up frequently without any warning lights. Mechanics see this and know this, but average drivers don’t realize this reality. The OP bares some responsibility for the mess, but their job is to catch someone else’s mistake. If the plug just suddenly pops out there isn’t anything even a diligent, 2x a month oil checking owner, could have done.
The OP feels Honda should cover this under the extended warranty. Yet, there is nothing Honda did to contribute to this motor’s failure (my opinion) so Honda denied the claim. I’m with Honda that they shouldn’t pay for the motor repair. But, I think the OP is correct that someone should pay for it, and I say it is the oil changer’s insurance carrier who should be paying.
The OP needs to refocus off Honda, and work with Honda to build a case to support the faulty nature of the oil change, specifically why the oil plug fell out. Was the gasket not put on properly? Was it under tightened? Overtightened, examining the hole in the oil pan can be revealing.
Transman,
Thank you, these are the exact points I’ve been asking Honda about and their response to your last paragraph was this:
“The engine has two parts, a top and a bottom. The oil level/pressure sensor is in the bottom. The top of your engine was starving for oil, your bottom was lubricated just enough to keep the sensor from lighting up.”
And that is why I didn’t get any oil pressure or oil [i]life[i/] (my car has a % meter on dash) displayed.
What do you think?
Whitey,
Please don’t make assumptions. “so long ago I can’t remember” is not true if you would just take the time to read the posts.
I had an oil change Nov. 11, as stated in previous posts. In commentary between myself and “mountain bike”, we debated the reality of oil checking at every fuel stop. We all know, whether you want to admit it or not, that probably 8 out of 10 people don’t do this. We rely on our cars to tell us what’s going on.
If you would read the posts, you’ll see my car is only 3 years old. If it was an older model, then sure, I could see the benefit in checking it every fuel stop.
I don’t check the oil weekly. I just had an oil change in november, its only beginning of february. I drove it 3k miles since last oil change.
All the articles say to change oil 5k or even 7,500k. With a car this new, why would I even think about looking at the oil every week?
I wish responders would get off that topic because its just not a reality for 75% of drivers.
Cyberbabe,
THANK YOU!
the article helped alot!
Thank you Civic-minded and Uncle Turbo, your posts were very helpful.
I do think bringing the car to a shop every few weeks is overkill though.
Thank you Transman,
I will ask the shop to do what you’ve posted and let you know.
What I don’t understand is, and no one has explained…is that aside from the dry dipstick, why didn’t the engine show a lack of lubrication to the Honda Inspector?
The engine is NOT designed to show low oil…but low oil PRESSURE…I’ve seen cars that the oil like come on about .3 seconds before the engine blew up. A little bit of oil will keep the light off…but that doesn’t mean the oil that is in there is doing a proper job of lubricating the engine.
Civic,
Codes were as follows:
P0340, 0301, 0302,0303, 0304,0305,0306, 0300, p2647, 61-1, 63-1, 86-1, 112-1.
I suppose the light might come on with LOW pressure, but very low.