Here is an article about a guy who made his own electric car for $13,000.
It must be a freaking miracle that he can charge the batteries without burning down his house.
Interesting article, 15 to 30 mile range in the winter, 40 to 50 mile range in the summer, I assume no AC. Top speed, 70 mph.
Reality check: To get this range took $1600 worth of golf cart batteries. These batteries are generally good for about 550 charge-discharge cycles based on being discharged 50% before recharging. Discharge them 80% each time and you cut the battery cycle life in half.
Let’s do 50% discharge trips, that would be about 25 miles I would guess. $1600/550 = about $2.90 of battery attrition with each trip in addition to the cost of the electric power needed to recharge the battery.
By contrast, my Toyota Yaris gets 40 to 45 mpg and would probably go 50 or 60 miles on that much money.
There are no conspiracys to kill the electric car unless you call making really good gasoline powered cars to compete against electrics a conspiracy.
For all you guys that keep railing against the validity of the electric car; the nickel hydride battery whose patented use for anything larger than a go-kart until late 2010, is not susceptible to storage loss to the degree of a lead acid in the cold and whose precious metals are highly retrievable in recycling.
The 100 mile range of the EV1s were legit and ALL those lease holders who did commute daily with the EV1 newer model and whose opinion so many of you hold in disregard did want to buy the car.
Google all the small car companies just gearing up to make electrics very soon but with no large auto maker assembley line technology, and you will see both the delay and the reason for high expense esp. when forced to use outdated battery technology.
Again, Ford, GM, Toyota etc. are not interested in producing a car that will help solve our needs and at the same time hasten their continued demise. Very little continued profit in service after sale cannot sustain dealerships, the parent company and parts manufacturers even though converted EV RAV4s are still on the streets of Cal. providing excellent service to their long term owners on original batteries.
Even the major stock holder of GM (Obama govt.) gets it and is still talking hybrids. So stop breathing the “can’t do it air” and look at the real reason…JOBS.
How exactly does making electric cars instead of gasoline cars destroy JOBS? Do electrics really last forever or will they get junked with rusted paint, tattered upholstry, dented fenders, and hail damage just like gasoline cars.
Did you know that most cars get junked for reasons other than a worn out engine?
Crude oil has been going up a buck a day lately…$68.50/barrel now…Last February, it got down to $32.00. The market is COMPLETELY controlled by speculation and manipulation. “Let the free market work. Drill, drill, drill”. Right. Exploration and production companies will start drilling again when they LOCK IN $100/barrel oil. We will be back to $4 at the pump before you know it. So find room in your garage for that battery charger.
Actually, what’s coming to an end is the century of “personal transportation”. We think we have a God given right to own and operate an automobile. We just can’t provide the resources to support 200 million cars. It was fun while it lasted…
Oh how that evil free market exploits us all. Why, the East Germans even had to build a wall to stem a flood of free market exploited refugees from flooding their worker’s paradise of East Germany, so terrible is the free market.
Here’s a view of the Korean peninsula from outer space at night, you can easily see which half is oppressed by the free market and which half is the people’s paradise of the alternative.
If the batteries are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries like these ( http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_thunder_sky.php ), they can last up to 2,000 cycles if the owner uses the proper battery management system.
So if you try it this way ($1,600/2,000) you get $0.80 of battery attrition with each trip. If you use a more modest estimate of battery life (like 1,500 cycles), you get $1.07 of battery attrition with each trip.
Where did you find that estimate of 550 cycles?
The range of these batteries when used in an electric motorcycle is 35-60 miles with a top speed of 60-70 mph.
It’s good to know that the auto group is in better shape than the entertainment group at Magna International. Magna Entertainment is currently in bakruptcy proceedings to protect their assets while they try to sell some of them. When you first mentioned Magna and Mr. Stronach it struck a chord. I checked on it, and he controls both companies. Some of the horse racing tracks owned by Magna are near me, so the connection was easy to make.
The batteries were 8v golf cart lead-acid batteries. Nothing fancy. I imagine LiFeK batteries would cost WAY more than $1,600.
There is no need to imagine. They have the prices listed:
LFP40__3.2V__40Ah__116 x 190 x 46__1.5kg__$80
LFP60__3.2V__60Ah__115 x 215 x 61__2.5kg__$120
LFP90__3.2V__90Ah__145 x 220 x 68__3kg____$180
So $1,600 could buy 20 of the first type, 13 of the second type, or 8 of the third type of battery.
Unfortunately, the article doesn’t say what kind of batteries he used or how many of them are installed.
Here is a video of a couple guys converting a motorcycle to run on an electric motor with normal lead acid batteries. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7wid_8k_7k
B.L.E.; we’ve had this post before; dagosa firmly believes ALL the maintenance on cars is related to engines and transmissions. On modern cars, the most expensive fixes are often the accessories and the suspension components, as well as the elctronics.
On one of my cars, over 125,000 miles, the following were fixed:
- Brakes; SIX (6) times
- Tires, 3 sets
- Headlight switch
- Headlights
- Tire rotation, 10 times
- Two CV and drive shaft assemblies
- 2 new batteries
- Paint touch up
- 17 oil changes, 4 air filters
- 4 transmision fluid & filter chnages
- New radiator, 3 flushes
- New Starter
- Fix oil leak in engine
- 2 muffler and tailpipe replacements
- Set of new drive belts
Total outlay for items not related to engine or transmission came to $3241 out of a total of $8581 or 38%. so much for electric cars putting repair shops out of business. There will still be the non engine/transmision work as well as a lot of electrical and electronic work, which will be done by new shops or old ones re-inventing themselves.
There is no conspiracy by Midas, Jiffy Lube and others to keep electric cars off the market.
Caddyman, you are right about the price of oil; it will soon go up again because world demand is still increasing as supply of “cheap”, conventional oil is slowly drying up. The economic value of oil, based on what large scale alternatives (from coal and biomass) would cost is about $225 per barrel, compared to $68 today. Last year’s spike was just the beginning. Most of the remaining reserves worldwide are in the hands of government oil companies, who are less than competent in investing and extracting oil economically. Indonesia, Mexico, China, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria are among countries that have their seen oil production decline recently.
Believe it or not, if all the world’s oil reserves were in the hands of large international oil,companies, the supply, like the supply of cars, would be much higher, and prices would settle at around $65 per barel for the forseeable future, until the cheap sources were getting exhausted…
The higher price is initially based on forecast shortages; last spring the world was actually producing very close to capacity. As long as there is very rapid growth in developing countries, demand will keep going up, even if you and I start riding bikes.
If you click a link at the end of the story you get to the builder’s web site, where he says “Interstate Battery, gave me a good deal on 15 8volt batteries with free delivery and no core charge. They’re U8VGC’s and cost me $1,604.20 with tax.”
These are 170 amp-hour batteries, total = 2550 amp-hours, 2550/90=28.33 batteries*$180=$5100, about triple the lead-acid battery cost.
Edit-My mistake, forgot to take the battery voltage into account. Those are 3.2V batteries, his were 8V, so you’d need 8/3.2*28.33=70.825 batteries, at a cost of $12,748!!! That’s eight times the cost of the lead-acid batteries.
re: the ideas to have recharge stations outside in parking lots with retractable cords. First issue is theft. People are stealing copper pipes out of homes for scrap value. How long do you think large copper conductor cables left out in the open are going to last? Imagine a whole block of electric cables sliced off when you get up in the AM. Another issue, the cable itself. The first time someone trips over your cable, I hope you have insurance…But enough about the bright side 
Yeah, I think the cable would need to be in the car, up front, like a block heater cord. Have the chargine plug (suitably protected against theft) on a short pole, pull up, swipe your card, plug in your 2’ cord, go to work.
In Sweden parking meters have electric plug-ins to keep the engines warm. They work just fine. We could have the same thing here, but preferred 240 volts for a faster charge. You could use your credit card to get the desired amount of charging time. Agree the cable would be part of the car, just like the electric cord for the block heater in the Northern states and Canada. As mentioned this might not work in certain urban areas, but with sufficient warning of “High Voltage, Danger of Electrocution” the cable might be left alone.
"Where did you find that estimate of 550 cycles? "
From this website, look under cycle life
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
Docnick
To put things in perspective, EV do a wonderful job of regenerative braking and dramatically cutting brake usage. the hydraulic motors on my tractors do ALL of the braking and heavy equipment that use Electric drive motors do as well. Friction brakes are used as back up. So let’s include at least half or most all of those brake jobs. In the initial build of the car, the mechanical parts of the transmission and engine far exceed those of the electric, non transmission part of the engine. Each of these parts come from suppliers. Lemforder, just down the street from us supplies cranks and connecting rods for several auto companies. They and ALL part producers for ICE and transmission are at risk. You just talk service, not PARTS and service including the parts to build the darn car. Count the moving wear items between an EV and ICE car. *items specific to just ICE…now redo your math.
*1. Brakes; SIX (6) times
2. Tires, 3 sets
3. Headlight switch
4. Headlights
5. Tire rotation, 10 times
6. Two CV and drive shaft assemblies
*7. 2 new batteries
8. Paint touch up
*9. 17 oil changes, 4 air filters
*10. 4 transmision fluid & filter chnages
*1. New radiator, 3 flushes
*12. New Starter
*13. Fix oil leak in engine
*14. 2 muffler and tailpipe replacements
15. Set of new drive belts
There are just 7 many low cost repair items whose service could be construed as both EV and ICE related for your repairs. How did you come to this “only 38%”. And you had no tune ups incl. plug replacements, valve adjustments etc. And I’m sure that you picked out just one of your cars. What about the total of all and did any at any time require any major ICE related service…Include your braking, muffler, cooling etc system too that are peripheral and necessary to the ICE. A well made electric motor can run continuously for twenty years with one moving part and no transmission at 90+% efficiency. What are you missing here ? They are so dependable with minimal maintenance and efficient compared to ICE that they are ALWAYS used when land line electricity is available.
Consider too that the remaining service items for EVs require much less training and lower scale labor with less pay.
Many people pay big money just for check on ICE related items, where dealers make lots of “free” money. Labor for ICE/tranny is the big profit maker. The usual check ups for an EV at 5000 mile intervals, is tire rotation and washer fluid. Go figure…again.
People just don’t like it when the status quo changes. They tend to resist it. In 1900, horses, steam locomotives, wagons, buggy’s, harness makers, an unbelievable environmental problem with thousands of tons of horse manure and urine flooding our cities…The Good Old Days…But when the MOTORCAR burst on the scene it was laughed at as a rich mans toy…In 10-15 years 500 years worth of horse-drawn technology was wiped out as the ICE took over transportation. We are at just such a crossroads today. The ICE has come to the end of the line and things are going to change. Don’t be afraid of it…
The very first automobiles were so expensive and so unreliable that you actually could make a good case for horses and buggies.
When electrics actually become better all around vehicles than what we have now, we will switch to them and “big oil” or whoever will no more be able to stop that than “big coal” was able to keep people using steam engines.
There are no conspiracies, electrics just aren’t there yet. When a real breakthrough in battery technology occurs, you won’t be able to keep people out of electrics, but it will take a breakthrough, not a slight improvement.
The imminent demise of the ICE has been foretold ever since I was in the 5th grade back when LBJ was the president. After a while, you tend to get skeptical.