it's just an advertising gimmick comparing one amp with another from the same manufacturer..
I agree with that. Most of the high-end amp manufacturers have true wattage ratings. And most use very conservative ratings. A Mac Amp I use to have was rated at 200 watts RMS into 8-Ohms with less then .001% THD. But when tested it showed well over 250watts with less then .0005% THD. Their rating was the MINIMAL it would do.
Some of the cheaper/shoddy amp manufactures use Peak as their advertised number…and they NEVER say what the THD is. One company was advertising a 200 watt system. But when you read the fine print…it was 200 watts into 2-Ohms. Who has 2-Ohm speakers in their house?? There is no universal standard…so companies will say what-ever they want (as long as they aren’t lying) to sell their product. Deceptive…but they aren’t lying.
I bet that Mac amp could easily magnify it’s rating at a usual car amp rating of well over 1% THD. Not only that, but it’s probably a per channel rating. I bet also, if you go a converter for it, plugged it into the cigarette lighted, it would blow a fuse too. If your Mac were a car amp, you could play with the numbers and get over 2k. It’s a game well worth it’s inclusion into the rest of the automotive industry. But Mike, I know you agree…db level is the real issue . Like I said, our advice will fall on deaf ears.
I had wattage argument with my oldest sons friend a few years back. I had just bought my Cary SET 300B - 12 watt/channel amp. He was adamant that his Best Buy specials that could handle 200 watts were going to be so much louder then my 30+ year old Altec’s and my 12 watt/channel amp. It wasn’t even a contest.
I think wattage means something different for consumer stereo systems than it does for professional audio and stage equipment. We have a Fender Chamion 110 electric guitar amp rated at 25 watts and I don’t dare crank it all the way up, the neighbors live too close. Consumer stereo “100 watts” is sort of like home air compressor “6.5 horsepower”. Since one horsepower = 746 watts, someone tell me how you can get that much horsepower out of an electric motor that only draws 15 amps from a 120 volt line.
I think the same issue exists for frequency response claims, when you claim that a stereo has a frequency range from 20 to 20kiloHz, what does that really mean? What’s your definition of flat? ±3db? 10db? Furthermore, can you prove it’s flat?
Like the owners of Jett Engineering answer to why they don’t make any horsepower claims for their racing model airplane engines, “it’s hard to beat the first liar”.
If that car stereo really delivered 1800 watts of power, you would have to worry about the car’s engine lugging down with every bass beat, you would have to turn the volume down for passing or hill climbing power, you wouldn’t need a heater, the stereo would keep the car warm in the winter.
It’s also posible that the light dimming is not so much an alternator capacity problem but the inability of the alternator’s voltage regulator to react quickly enough to a sudden change in amp draw to prevent light flicker. That’s what the big capacitors are for, to supply power while the alternator reacts to the sudden increase in amp demand.
I'm usually against the nanny state but this is bordering on criminal. Young parents that have no business raising kids when they can't make adult decisions regarding their child's health and welfare. To permanently affect their health at such a young age when they can't know better or do anything about it...you wouldn't like my version of justice...
If I could have discretely gotten their license plate number while they were visiting my neighbor(or found out where they lived), without raising suspicion, I would have wrote it down and called children services. Why my neighbor didn’t do anything about it is beyond me. And he was the one who turned his stepson in for welfare fraud. I told my neighbor, multiple times, when the topic was brought up that he should turn him in, and maybe see if they could get custody of their grandkid.
I don’t think the stepson has his old Civic anymore, nor do I hear him thumping a ghetto stereo system when he visits either. But the damage has already been done.
edit: I have a Bose factory stereo and can get it thumping pretty good even at low volume. I generally hover in the 15~20 range; the highest I watched it go(without music playing of course) was 63 or 64. 15 is average for me, unless the song on my ipod is quiet, or it’s a really good song that “needs” to be turned up(AC/DC, Alan Jackson). My neighbor has said he can hear me coming home sometimes, but he can also hear what the song is outside of my car, and not just “thomthomthom” like his stepson’s car would do.
@BLE
I know exactly what you mean. I look at amps for audio sound like I look at generators. I had a Vantage 5500 watt continuous and 6500 surge. That was fine but you couldn’t run anything but the basics as start ups turned the house “brown” if too much was on line. Then we got an electric start Yamaha rated for 4600 Watt continuous but a remarkable, over ten thousand watts surge. It could run nearly the whole house as well as remaining stable for electronic gear. The lower wattage was at a much more stable output and the lights never flickered when the well pump, a big draw, came on. But, it did cost a thousand more but…so doesn’t a clean receiver or audio amp. Car amps just don’t have that requirement. There is so much ambient noise in vehicles in general, the distortion is disquised in the average car.
@bscar2
There are a lt of people out there who dis Bose home audio but laud their car stereos. Funny, but their approach seems to me to be the same. They try to work with the environment as much as possible realizing truly accurate sound is almost impossible to achieve anywhere throughout the entire range, let alone in a car. Accuracy in the critical midrange and fill out the spectrum with enough pleasant sound beyound that on the ends to give a consistent satisfying sound that’s acceptable to most people. This works especially well in cars but many audiophiles legitimately find the approach lacking for their taste in the home where the low end can be reinforced and in home theater and some music the needs are for more extended range then their approach can produce. Personally, I have always found the Bose sound in general outstanding for long term listening, background and acoustic, but lacking in home theater and more complex music. Never heard one in a car though that wasn’t really, really good.
I can see where a car would be more suited for the way they do their sound systems. If you get a quiet enough car(Buick, Acura, Mercedes, etc) then it’d be easier to get results than in a noisy car like a Civic or Aveo.
I bought my mom one of those Wave Radios several years ago(not long after they first came out) and it’s still working to this day, and she still enjoys it.
I think there has been a recent class action lawsuit against power equipment makers for exaggerated horsepower claims and there no longer seem to be absurd impossible horsepower claims on the labels of home air compressors etc.
We deal with electric motors and I don’t know how many times we’ve had someone looking for a “5 horsepower” single phase motor in a NEMA 56 frame to replace the burned out one on their shop air compressor. It’s hard to convince them that the motor on their compressor at most is good for about 2.5 to 3 horsepower. The OEM motors, usually made by Dayton or Reliance have “special” or “air compressor duty” written on the nametag under horsepower, letting the compressor manufacturer do the lying.
Lawnboy never put horsepower ratings on their lawnmowers, they didn’t want to compete with liars.
@bscar2
When the Wave radio first came out, I thought they were a joke. A few of my friends bought them instead of stereo units. I dissed them at first thinking there is no way they could sound as good. Well, guess what. I was only half right. They don’t sound as good, but still good enough to make it a worthwhile purchase for those who would like better sound and still not deal with all the wiring. And, you unpug it and move it out to then porch. Guess you could call it a Bosified boom box. It does make sense for a lot of people.
@BLE
I used to have a two stroke mower and it had more guts then any comparable 4stroke. Even though it is less efficient, the extra power was well worth it. The new mower I have needs thirty percent higher horsepower rating to do half the job it seems. Just to carry it’s own weight around, it has to be bigger as well. I would rather see more in the line of biodegradable two stroke oils which I have used and something to clean up the exhaust then to just eliminate them from use in lawn mowers. Electric motors are tough for the average Joe to get a handle on being locked into horsepower ratings on the gasoline motor. I thing manufacturers take advantage of it. Seems like wattage or a torque measure makes much more sense.
There are a lt of people out there who dis Bose home audio but laud their car stereos. Funny, but their approach seems to me to be the same.
Absolutely NOT the same approach. With a home - Bose has ZERO control of the room size, shape, materials…all effecting greatly how the system sounds (especially Bose). Where as with their car systems the system is designed for a specific vehicle where size shape and materials are all known. JBL, Bose both used microphones placed strategically in the vehicle during design and testing to find the optimum placement, size and power handling of each speaker. That’s IMPOSSIBLE to do for a home system.
This works especially well in cars but
It doesn’t work that well in cars. I guess it works decently if you’re sitting in a parking lot with the windows up. But when you’re driving down the road with the added 60+ DB in road noise…it just can’t compete against a decent home system. You want true sound enjoyment…the home is the best place to get it. Don’t get me wrong…I like listening to my music in my truck too. There’s a world of difference between a cheap car audio system and the Bose system I had in my Pathfinder. Or even the stock system I have in my 4runner SR5. But neither can compare to a good home system.
@MikeInNh
Think we have made the point enough that the car environment is poor. The limited interior volume does little to reinforce low frequencies and prevent standing waves and the windows and fabric variations from one car to another does little to make high frequencies consistently rendered. Ever look at Bose drivers in both cars and home ? They try to minimize the negative effects of an environment on the ends of the audio spectrum with their drivers and substitute EQ in their crossovers to help make up the loss…slightly. . The home environment is MORE stable with fewer variations…like adding passengers. This is why Bose works well in cars ( saying nothing about home and making no comparisons. ) But, according to my son, who did home and car installs for Tweeter, Bose approach renders more consistently good sound in a variety of car applications using a similar approach and standard drivers. It obviously can be done well with others…but the drivers and approach need more variation from one car to another. Still, have said nothing about home stereos ! Mike, please don’t cut off a statement like " it works well in cars …" and take it to mean that only in cars and in your next breath say your Bose system made a world of difference compared to cheaper. They obviously didn’t work well and Bose does. IN CARS.
Btw, home systems don’t work well compared to the live venue a live performance was recorded in. They work well or not only compared to other home systems… You are wrong about Bose not designing their systems for different home use. My adapt Q does exactly that electronically in our LS48 and they go out of their way to tell exactly where to put your speakers in different home environments. It is exactly the same approach they use in cars. Driver placement and EQ evaluation…EXACTLY !! one of the biggest reasons many don’t like Bose is perception and the other is performance…for home use. But, they take the same approach everywhere…even in professional audio.
Mike, please don't cut off a statement like " it works well in cars ....." and take it to mean that only in cars and in your next breath say your Bose system made a world of difference compared to cheaper.
I suggest you go back and re-read the line. His comment about Bose was over…then he went off on a tangent which had NOTHING to do with the part of the line
“This works especially well in cars but many audiophiles legitimately find the approach lacking for their taste in the home where the low end can be reinforced and in home theater and some music the needs are for more extended range then their approach can produce.”
They could be two different sentences. And I stand by my statement…it DOESN’T work well in cars. Mainly because you can’t get real good sound in a car compared to a good home system. And I specifically pointed to the added road noise that you get from a car. You also missed the statement about “Maybe if parked with the windows up.” Personally I don’t listen to my truck stereo that way.
Btw, home systems don't work well compared to the live venue a live performance was recorded in.
And that’s your opinion. And I’ll agree I’ve never heard a Bose system come close to live performance or a recorded performance. There’s ALWAYS compromise. But you can come close to live performance or recorded performance. We’ve had this argument before…And I’m still not a fan of Bose home systems. Bose Pro audio is almost non-existent. I think it’s only there for them to sell more home and car systems. Their pro division accounts for less then 1% of pro audio world wide. Here in New England they have their biggest segment…and even that is less the 5%.
Ah, I am loosing you. That was me explaining why the approach works well for their use in cars but may not be best for many at home…I don’t know what “he” you are referring to.
Bose will never be a big player in Pro Audio, as they are over priced. They don’t even try. To put it bluntly, they are just one of dozens of competing companies and one percent isn’t that bad as the average DJ or band just can’t aford them.
In a situation like a car, you want long term listenability and accurate sound is often, unfulfilling. If people don’t get that, they don’t understand a philosophy that Bose has. For home owners, it’s hit or miss. But, they make a variety of products for special purposes. Their home speaker line will not change because their philosophy hasn’t changed. And it is what I said it was. A system to produce pleasant sounding systems that works in cars but not in environments when people want faithful sound reproduction. I have never said much of anything different. They do a great job of compacting decent sound, selling for a high price and staying within their merchandizing philosophy.
But, in so called professional audio at least where entertainment is concerned, accurate sound has never been the point. You hear few singers in your home the way they actually sound. You are hearing the way a sound engineer wants you. If you go to a symphony and want to reconstruct the sound accurately, first you build the symphony hall. You and I have always disagreed on that.
I have a first generation Wave radio. While it sounds decent, it irks me that there is no adjustment for bass, treble, etc. It strikes me as rather pretentious that Bose thinks it knows how it should sound in every situation better than the end user. It also irks me that Bose lagged behind everyone in subsequent generations of the Wave radio in adding MP3 capability and other features that you can get on a $30 boombox. You’d expect better from something costing this much.
For the person that thinks that the OP’s amp may be putting out a lot less than rated–indeed it might be, but if all the lights are dimming at every bass beat, it’s very likely it’s putting out a substantial amount of power. Just because most of the people that add these to their cars are clueless and don’t necessarily understand that to make it sound good you need the right crossovers, speakers, equalization, etc. doesn’t mean that all of these amps are garbage. Indeed I have heard some that sound pretty good and have seen some with very good build quality. Naturally you get what you pay for.
Moat audio systems in the cars I have owned have been disappointing for me, not because of the bass response, but because the higher frequency response seems to be lacking. I like orchestral music and chamber music and I like to be able to really hear the individual instruments. I don’t know how high the frequency response is on car audio systems, but in the systems I have heard, the frequencies for the overtones that make the various instruments distinguishable from each other just aren’t there. As the principal horn in a chamber orchestra, and the horn player in a woodwind quintet (flute, oboe, clarinet, horn, bassoon), I’m always listening for the various instruments. I don’t often use the audio systems in our cars. We just made the 365 mile trip to visit our son and his family and the audio system was never turned on the entire 6 hour trip.
I’ll admit to being cheap and have never considered replacing the audio system that came with the vehicles that I have purchased. I’m also satisfied with the Acoustic Research 2 ax speakers that I have used for over 40 years in my home system. I find that the Sherwood receiver I own that has 20 or 25 watts per channel perfectly adequate to power these speakers.
When I listen to a system, it has to sound right to me. I don’t care about what specifications are reported.
According to my son…the audio installer of the family. Cars have their unique problems. One being they need for less efficient speakers to not only move less air in a smaller environment but to actually avoid too much dynamic range which we enjoy listening to in sources like an orchestra. The dynamic range has a direct affect on the attack and decay of overtones heard of each note of each instrument which makes it so realistic. But, with the ambient noise in a car and too much dynamic range, you would have to turn up the volume to hear sillent passages while being blasted out of your chair by the louder. Or, turn it down and not hear the lower volume sounds at all. So, car audio in the average car has to compress the dynamic range just hear everything, in accurately which makes sound more one dimensional and lacking the character to separate instruments. It’s a sacrifice they make to be “in a car”. Poor placement for very beamy tweeters in a close car environment can cause you not to hear many sounds in a car. Absorption too plays a big role if you have anything but leather. So it’s tough. Just adding people to a car changes the low range reinforcement of the interior. And you’re right. Specs mean little once the car environment takes over.
Btw, one of the first speakers I had were AR2ax. Very inefficient for me and needed lots of dirty watts just to get off the ground. You must have great hearing !
A system to produce pleasant sounding systems that works in cars but not in environments when people want faithful sound reproduction.
I’ve NEVER been a fan of putting a lot of money into car systems. You just can’t get it right. You can get it pleasing (as you said). My Bose in my 98 Pathfinder was very pleasing. Not the best I heard…but very pleasing.
You hear few singers in your home the way they actually sound.
If you’re comparing Large concerts with over 10,000 people…I’ll agree. But I’ve been to some very small venues (maybe 200 people tops). It was in a nice controlled theater. That can be reproduced nicely at home with the right system. In fact one of those venues I was at was recorded live…and I bought the CD.
The dynamic range has a direct affect on the attack and decay of overtones heard of each note of each instrument which makes it so realistic.
I did not no you want to decrease dynamic range in a car audio. Dynamic range is very very important to listen to a realistic recording. Classical and Jazz had very wide dynamic range. Most Rock didn’t, so it wasn’t really needed.
The BEST car audio I’ve heard was a friend who did a custom install (did it himself) with a MacIntosh head unit and amps…with a mix of JBL and Infinity speakers. Only pushing about 200 watts…but the sound was amazing. Took a few business trips to NYC in that vehicle. I had my Pathfinder with the Bose system at the time…While I liked my Bose system…it wasn’t even close to this system in his Ford Explorer.
I did not know you wanted to decrease dynamic range in car audio
That was a surprised to me when my son suggested I mount car speakers in the walls of the family room for the surround sound system I had… He said I might like the effects better with their limited dynamic range producing the background effect sounds, even at lower volumes without being too load at higher. Then he explained why they are used in noisy environments and for background music. When I asked if they would be less accurate, he just laughed…" Dad, you 're just making your own sound regardless. It doesn’t matter what you use"
That’s also why too, a quiet car needs a different approach and why buying off shelf speakers is hit or miss when they and the rest of the system may not be matched to your car’s environment. And, opening the windows means you have “changed your car completely”. IMHO, you can make car sound very impressive, yet not accurate to the original source. You can be your own sound engineer, for the right amount of money.