We have a right to bash Toyota, too, the only auto manufacturer to pay a CRIMINAL penalty in my memory. And we have many (many) regulars that extoll Toyota’s virtues at every opportunity. There is a lot of good from all auto manufacturers and some bad from them as well. Some people enjoy flaying the horse more than others.
“We have a right to bash them. They took billions of our tax dollars… and this behavior is what we got for it?”
Point taken. Bashing them here probably won’t get any tax dollars back. I seek revenge by continuing to get outstanding value from buying gently used GM cars that deliver amazing performance. I’m sure GM didn’t plan on giving me my money’s worth 
.
However, that is all a bit off-topic. Back to addressing the topic…
I read the Times story (that’s not where I usually get my news) and I read the October 21, 2013 GM TSB pertaining to this issue. Can you tell, based on this story, whether or not this individual had the bulletin performed while the car was under warranty? Have you experienced this steering problem to see if it actually would cause a crash?
I still need more information before I decide that GM should order a recall on this issue. I could be convinced, but I just don’t see the evidence, yet.
CSA
@jtsanders And we also have many regulars that have bashed Toyota
Such as me
stuck piston rings, which Toyota denies was ever a problem
high oil consumption in the 4 cylinders, going back decades, often due to the rings
threads pulling out of the block in the 2AZ-FE engine
sludge . . . in my opinion, this is 80% poor maintenance, 20% poor design
I love Toyotas, but I fully well recognize that they have made many mistakes, and covered them up, downplayed them, lied about them, etc.
And I’ve owned many Toyotas over the years, and will probably continue to do so. But I do my homework, so that I can pick the Toyota that is best for me, and avoid the problematic ones, and the ones that would not be right for me
Pick and choose
Sorry VDCdriver I used a poor choice of words there. I just lumped you in with everyone who does bash GM at every opportunity. All vehicle makers have their problems but it seems that some, like Ford, rarely get any bad press. I know about their current reliability issues and their past reliability issues. Look under the hood of any Ford street rod and you will probably find a small block Chevy residing there.
“And I’ve owned many Toyotas over the years, and will probably continue to do so. But I do my homework, so that I can pick the Toyota that is best for me, and avoid the problematic ones, and the ones that would not be right for me
Pick and choose”
@db4690 I agree with you. It’s all about homework before choosing. Besides saving thousands of dollars, by buying slightly used cars, instead of new ones, I get time to let new models develop a little history and get time to research.
Every manufacturer has good machines and duds. Why choose problematic cars when there are reliable ones out there?
CSA
Thanks, missileman.
Just for the record, in addition to some negative remarks that I have made in the past regarding GM, I have also (mildly) complimented them in comparing my Chevy Citation to my Volvo 240.
Yes, the Citation did have more than its share of problems, but at least GM stood behind their product–unlike Volvo–and the Citation was more reliable and cost less to keep running over the years than that awful Volvo.
So, just for the record, I have bashed Volvo, and I have occasionally had negative comments about various models made by: GM…Toyota…Nissan…VW…Honda…Mazda…Porsche…Suzuki…Peugeot…Renault…and Subaru, even though Subaru is the only make of car that I ever bought more than once.
@db4690, you are in a position to know more about problems with various cars than most people. Many, myself included, don’t have the experience or contacts to know the faults of brands and models available.
@jtsanders Thanks for that comment
Anyways, much of that “hidden” information is available to the public, for a fee
If you pay the roughly $20 fee, you can gain access to manufacturer’s technical websites, and see the recalls, technical service bulletins, etc. The ones that the typical owner never hears about
If you want the skinny on a specific model, and want ALL the information that the manufacturer provides to their dealers, pay the $20. It will also gain access to the factory service manual for the vehicles. In fact, it will gain you access to that brand’s resources, for the duration of the description. So you could look up stuff for a 1999 Chevy Silverado, and also a 2006 Saturn Vue, for example
What’s even more disturbing is that there are some really ominous and troublesome documents out there. And it’s clear the manufacturer really buggered up, but they’re not considered a technical service bulletin. Thus, I will assume mitchell and alldata would not have access to them, as I believe they can get you the bulletins and recalls, but not some of the more devious documents out there
Some of those documents NEVER get converted to technical service bulletins. yet they have work procedures, part numbers, labor ops, etc.
I’m afraid many of todays “drivers” would interpret a sudden loss of power steering as a locked steering wheel and crash into a bridge! The first car I actually bought in 1967 was a 1963 Pontiac Bonneville convertible with power steering. 22 vehicles later in 1985 I bought my second car with power steering a 1979 Lincoln Versailles. Now days you can’t buy a new vehicle without it.
My dear mother stands 5’3" and weighs 100 lbs soaking wet. She is still driving the 1975 Buick she bought new with her mad money. She is now 70 years old. If, while she was driving her car, she were to lose power steering for any reason, the result would be a crash with injuries and/or death, as she is not physically strong enough to steer the car and not mechanically savvy enough to try to restart the car or figure out what to do next. I think this is the case in her aged car, my dad’s newer car, or a brand new one.
This is a risk you/we all take when we get in our cars. No one in our family would ever consider suing anyone should anything like this happen. I think if people just stepped up an accepted their share of personal responsibility most of these lawsuits and recalls would never happen.
"I think if people just stepped up an accepted their share of personal responsibility most of these lawsuits and recalls would never happen. "
I was thinking that hardly anybody accepts responsibility for their circumstances any more. Get a lawyer and go after the deepest pockets. Commit a felony and resist arrest and get shot and/or killed… it’s police brutality. Drive your car out of oil, ignoring the bright warning light… some other jerk’s fault. Take out $80,000 in student loans and major in Art History, unable to get a decent job and can’t make loan payments… not fair! Don’t do anything to make yourself a valuable employee and work at an entry-level job for ten years… no justice, demand $15/hour!
At some point the whole system breaks down without personal responsibility. That’s why I said there needs to be limits. We’ve got Lemon Laws and warranty protection when buying cars. Some recalls might be justified, but should everything become a Recall? Where do we draw the line?
CSA
I want my money back… {
I think the comment about the forever warranty was related to the NY Times bringing up rust brake lines on vehicles that are a decor or more old, not the steering issue.
This post was misplaced when I went looking for the NY Times article. I repeated it in the correct place as well.
^
Well, I asked the person in question if he actually READ the article about GM steering problems, and he stated that he had read it. The link that I provided did not reference the brake line rust problems, and only talked about past–AND PRESENT–steering problems with some Chevy and Buick models.
More than one articles showed up in that thread, and there was a small mention of the rusted brake lines. I did have to look twice to find it though.
Commit a felony and resist arrest and get shot and/or killed... it's police brutality.
When the guy is running away from the cop and shot in the back…damn right it’s police brutality.
I’m a firm believer that Toyota/Honda and Nissan build a much more reliable vehicle then GM. I’m also appalled and ashamed of the way Toyota handled some of their safety problems in the past. And have said so in this forum. But there always seem to be the GM zealots who ALWAYS stand up for them and make excuse after excuse defending them. GM will NEVER change if people keep blindly buying them because it’s GM.
In my view, yes, capitalism should be a factor in car buying. If GM makes unsafe/unreliable/crappy products, don’t buy GM. This, incidentally, is why there are no GM products in my garage.
However, car manufacturers have shown in the past that they will cover up safety defects. If they hide the safety defect and no one knows about it until it’s too late (see: Ford Pinto, or the more recent GM coverup which was so extensive that replacement parts for defective parts were given the same part number so that no one would know what was going on), then the capitalism model does not work by itself.
In short, there is nothing wrong, and everything right, with a government insisting that products sold within its borders be free of major safety defects. Since corporations are unwilling to disclose when they screw up, we must have an enforcement mechanism by which they are forced to do so and forced to fix the problems that they create.
I agree with @shadowfax and others on this general proposition. When the “market” breaks down and does not function due to incomplete consumer knowledge (among other factors), this is when ex ante government regulation and/or tort law (ex post lawsuits) should step in to correct issues that cannot or will not otherwise be corrected.
If it’s just a software update it shouldn’t cost GM much (relatively) to do a recall.
What’s it take, maybe 15 minutes of tech time?
A boost in GM’s reputation would be worth that.