I believe that good four point, or better yet five point seat belts would be much better than the stupid three point belts and explosive devices we have now. In my 3 million miles of driving I have seen very low friction conditions where ABS systems stop you from even slowing the vehicle.
There are rare occasions when I might want to skid, spin,or lock up the brakes. Maybe they have greatly improved ABS, I certainly hope so. I drive much less than I used to and I no longer have to drive in really nasy conditions all winter like I used to.
I have also seen many malfunctions of ABS brakes on GM cars, trucks, and buses. Sometimes they locked up at highway speed but the more common malfunction was refusal to stop even on dry roads with the ABS buzzing like ir was working and the vehicle just sailing on.
I had a 98 Olds Intrigue, that if I tried to hustle it on a twisty back road with some icy spots, the poor ABS and traction control systems would get so confused that all the system lights and buzzers would be going off for the whole rest of the trip no matter how sedately I drove the rest of the way. It would reset to normal after it was shut off for a while.
That same car tried to kill me bu shutting off the engine on a high speed curve when all the oil plastered itself to one side of the oil pan.
Give me a car with simple direct controls. I donāt like electric steering, ABS, traction controls, touch screens or menus. I don;t want any control that makes me take my eyes off the road.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest, I feel much better now:)
āAnd how can we overlook the fact that we send our kids to school in buses without seat belts or air bags.ā
I feel that many school bus drivers are more careful and safer than the average car driver. Most of the ones I see tend to drive fairly slow and steady
And the typical large school bus dimensions are completely different from any SUV, pickup truck or car. Itās much heavier and the occupants sit much higher. A car hitting a school bus isnāt going to have nearly the same effect, versus a car hitting another car. Iām no engineer, but I feel the school busās would absorb much of the carās energy, versus another car
Now a school bus getting hit by a Freightliner is a different matter
But I donāt think thatās what you meant, right?
I donāt recall the exact numbers, but airbags only add a small margin of safety to a seat-belted driver.
Found this ā3-point belts are 48 percent effective in the driverās seat of passenger cars. They are 54 percent effective in conjunction with air bagsā. (page 19)
"effectiveness ratings indicate the proportion of potential fatalities who will live if they
use the devices."
So you gain 6% more chance of surviving if you have air bags, or that is how I interpret this.
Just my personal opinion and not trying to start any controversy, but I do not like for one second replacement parts that require a home equity loan to purchase. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is true of all automakers.
Back in the 90s an ABS unit on a SAAB was 2000 bucks. In the late 80s a Subaru that cost 12 grand brand new out the door carried a 5 grand replacement cost on a new transmission; 40 odd percent of the entire car brand spanking new. This always went over well with customersā¦
About 10 years ago I had a ratchet slip and broke the plastic ABS brake booster grommet on my Lincoln. Even with the part number embossed on the grommet it could not be had from the Ford parts department. The entire brake booster had to be purchased at great expense. Since this was not happening I chose to machine one out of aluminum on my metal lathe. Lucky for me I have the ability to do this. Most would have to pony up hundreds of dollars for the booster.
I donāt fault the dealers for this so much as the manufacturers because the biggest markup is when the car maker bumps the price of the part from the supplier up to the dealers.
For example, one time Subaru had an inner CV joint issue related to boot failures; especially on the right inner. This lead to a campaign where Subaru would replace the boot and joint if necessary. This snowballed into a lot of inner joints being needed, soā¦
The dealer cost on the joint was 65 bucks. The customer retail was about 95 dollars.
Under warranty terms the dealer was reimbursed (parts only) the 65 dollars + a 25% markup.
Warranty labor was another major suckage issue; paid .2 hours (12 minutes) for the job.
Once Subaru had to start buying a lot of them under warranty the dealer cost on the joints dropped to the price paid for those joints which were manufactured and shipped from Japan.
A whopping 6 bucks per joint; meaning the dealer was reimbursed a massive 1.50 which did not even cover the cost of filing the claim.
Once the joint issue was pretty well cleared up over time the dealer cost went back up to 65; followed soon after by bumping that 65 up to make up for the joints Subaru had to buy.
How much Ford dealers pay for that HCU I have no idea but odds are it may be around 2500ish; give or take. Thatās just wild guessing as Iām not privy to the Ford pricing. More than likely Ford acquires those units from their supplier for a few hundred bucks or so each at most.
I donāt for one second consider airbags when deciding on a car. I donāt care if theyāre there or not, because Iām not going to need them. I donāt say that because of a foolish sense of invincibility, but because of statistics. The chances of me being seriously injured in a car wreck are pretty small. Small enough that it will probably not happen to me. Small enough that there are probably a dozen other things more likely to hurt me that are in my control, and therefore care about more.
Letās also remember that when you are hurt in a car wreck, your injuries are not the result of a lack of airbags. Your injuries are the result of someone driving their car into yours. Take the airbags out of the equation and then the responsibility lies squarely with the drivers.
Air bags are SRS, SUPPLEMENTARY Restraint Systems. The problem arose in the late 60s when various states would not implement seat belt laws. Manufacturers were then told to incorporate āPassive Restraint Systemsā, i.e. air bags, realizing that air bags alone had severe limitations.
The result was that we now have both, but the seat/shoulder belt provide most of the protection.
Racing drivers proved the value of the restraint harness long before we had air bags.
In a previous life , or I should say years ago , I worked as a mechanic at an AMC / JEEP dealership as a mechanic . I remember enough to be dangerous , lol . Anyway , many jeeps & amc cars used the exact same parts . The 258 cu in 6 cylinder , the 304 cu in V8 & the 360 V8ās were used in cars & jeeps .
The parts department had two different parts books , one for jeeps & one for cars . Parts were quite a bit more expensive in the jeep book than they were in the car book even though they were the exact same part .
Later in life I became an electrician & a company I was working for had a jeep wagoneer with the 360 V8 & the engine blew . The owner of the company was also a good friend of mine . He had a wrecked AMX with the 304 V8 & I asked him why he didnāt put that engine in the wagoneer & he said , it wonāt fit will it ? I said yes it will .
He called the local AMC dealership & they told him it wouldnāt fit & he told me so . I again repeated I knew it would so he asked me if I would put it in & I said yes & did & he seemed amazed it fit right in with no problems .
As to the OPās problem , on his vehicle I donāt know if thereās a work-around or not but many times there is if you can somehow find the right person . In his place I would burn the internet up researching his problem & he might get lucky . Thereās already people on here telling him a work-around is possible & there very well may be .
Just because a dealership says it canāt be done , doesnāt mean it canāt .
Why is it that I have no choice but to pay for the mandated air bag system on a new automobile while also having no choice regarding the safety of my kids riding on city owned school buses? Passengers can be injured hitting the upadded frame of the seat ahead of them in a panic stop when there is no collision.
And just as local and state governments wish to avoid the cost of seat belts and air bags on school buses they also wish to minimize the reporting of injuries and deaths of children riding in their buses.
I currently own no cars equipped with air bags @db4690. Actually the air bag equipped cars that I have owned were flipped without being titled or tagged. But federal regulations are more and more restrictive and the required technologies are being incorporated into the operation of theautomobile so that obsolescence will be just one system failure after the warranty expires and that situation will greatly benefit the auto industry by drastically cutting the useable life of automobiles.
jesmed1: VIN specific is not only ridiculous it is near criminal. It is like Microsoft and Apple having only original purchaser rights. But now auto manufacturers not caring about actual, not virtual lives.
Vehicle computers and modules are available in the aftermarket for more popular models. Availability has nothing to do with recording the VIN in the module. If there is a market for replacement modules the competition will supply it.
Itās not likely doable by a DIYer with limited skills or a shop due to liability issues but what about the adaptation of a normal vacuum operated brake booster/master cylinder along with a vacuum pump to power the booster. Any pesky warning lamps could be resolved with a piece of tape or turning the tunes up real loudā¦
It likely wouldnāt pass muster in certain states requiring inspections but where thereās a will thereās a way is how I look at it. Just some outside the box thinking; or crazed rambling depending upon your bent.
If the Ford were mine and faced with unloading it or puking up 5 grand for operative brakes, Iād probably take a stab at it just as an exercise in homebrew engineering.
āVIN specific is not only ridiculous it is near criminalā
awfully strong language
Are you going to sue the manufacturer when someday you need to buy a new control module, because yours has failed, and itās not possible to use a junkyard part?
I drove a school bus in NY State for 15 years until 3 years ago for a school district. The statistic is that children on a school bus ar 15 times safer per mile than in a car. Our buses all had seat belts mandated by NY State law and we were instructed not to advise the kids to wear them.
School bus seats are all high backed now and are densely padded around the frame and designed to collapse around the child in a frontal accident.
Tests done at Calspan industries about 20 years ago found that children on school buses would suffer worse injures when wearing the lap belts than unbelted children.
The unbelted children fly into the seatback in front of them injuring wrists and noses and the belted children jacknifed forward striking the seatback with their heads at a downward angle causing cervical spine injuries.
I realize this information is not well received by people who feel that seatbelts must be safer and people trust their feelings much more than tests or statistics. Proof of that is people driving SUVs or pickups for safety reason while cars and minivans have better safety statistics.
As school bus drivers we were always amused by all the people who picked up their children in their own cars when the weather got bad rather than let them ride the much, much safer school bus. And about a third of these people let their children ride in the front seat of their car.
I drove a school bus in NY State for 15 years until 3 years ago for a school district. The statistic is that children on a school bus ar 15 times safer per mile than in a car.
That stat has absolutely NOTHING to do with people wearing seat-belts or not. It has everything on how a bus is driven and the fact that people are usually a lot more cautious around a school bus. When I took the bus to school in NYā¦and my kids took the bus here in NHā¦the bus rarely if ever reached 20mph. By the time it reached 20ā¦itās braking for the next bus-stop.
Tests done at Calspan industries about 20 years ago found that children on school buses would suffer worse injures when wearing the lap belts than unbelted children.
Thereās a world of difference between lap-belts and seat-belts with shoulder harness. Lap-belts were notoriously badā¦even in cars.
