That sounds like a Toyota Whitey … I’ve done #2 and #4. And Ray said on the show that Corollas have a tendancy to get leaks in the exhaust manifold, so I wouldn’t be surprised to have that problem in the future someday. Not that I’m complaining. I don’t expect perfection. And all those items you mention are fairly easily and inexpensevely fixed. Good post.
@GeorgeSanJose
LOL
That “tendency to get leaks in the exhaust manifold” is actually a tendency to get cracks in the exhaust manifold!
Go to a pick your part junkyard and look at the Toyotas there. A lot of the exhaust manifolds for 4A-FE and 7A-FE engines have been plundered.
I wonder why . . .
…probably for the same reasons parts get pulled from all the other cars at the junkyard. It’s not much of a mystery. Every car will need a repair if you keep it long enough, and there’s a pretty big market for used and rebuilt parts.
@Whitey I believe those exhaust manifolds are being plundered because 4a-fe and 7a-fe cracked exhaust manifolds are a pattern failure. Mine cracked more than once. And I was using brand new parts!
FYI I wasn’t actually wondering anything. Yes, I have seen guys sent to the junkyard to scavenge parts for their independent shops.
The reason those exhaust manifolds go so fast is that on Corolla/Civic type cars is the exhaust manifold and catalytic converter are one part, and the precious metals in the catalytic converter are harvested for the money they get.
My exhaust manifold only cracked once, and I attribute it to my driving style at the time. When I bought my Civic, I was living in Fort Lauderdale, and I was driving like most South Florida residents drive. By the time I replaced the exhaust manifold, I had moved from South Florida to Jacksonville, where people drive in a more sane and safe manner. I had also reached a level of maturity where I didn’t feel a need to drive and accelerate as aggressively.
I’m not saying your issue is caused by your driving habits. After all, we drive different cars and I don’t even know you. However, if you’re looking for the reason your exhaust manifolds keep cracking, I recommend a comprehensive approach.
I didn’t think you were actually wondering why, but I did think you might be jumping to a conclusion that might be based on limited information, so I responded to your snark in kind.
Perhaps a custom exhaust system would solve your problem. At the time I got my exhaust manifold replaced, I considered replacing it with a header and aftermarket catalytic converter. My only concern was that Florida might start inspecting cars and conducting emissions tests again. In hindsight, my concerns were unfounded, but the replacement exhaust manifold has held up just fine.
Texases, If you really believe that, I will trade you a Neon for a Civic of the same model year.
In recent years, the gap has narrowed, but still there are differences. I like late model Fords, and I particularly like the Focus, but you can find an abundance of Focus horror stories on the web. You will look in vain for comparable horror stores for the little Mazdas.
Also, it is tough to overcome a bad reputation. I worked for the plant that built Prizm/Corollas in Fremont CA. Virtually the ONLY difference was the insignias on the grill and steering wheel, yet the JD Power ratings were consistently better for the Corolla. Part of this was that the Corollas got better service at Toyota dealers, but most of it was perception, leading to reporting bias by the owners.
@Manolito read my follow up posts. Equal maintenance would lead to significant differences between makes. Just making the point (like we always do) that somebody looking at buying a 10 year old car with 150k on the clock had better be concerned with much more than make and model as far as reliability goes.
WAIT…Hondas ARE perfect !!!
There @MikeINNH , ;=)
@thesamemountainbike
"turning on a dime…" maybe a poor choice of words…
How about a very big flat dime recently run over by a train. My reference was in terms of the auto industry, as they never would have improved longevity, only as it relates to profit and perception. Exhaust systems made of stainless steel and tune up parts including electronic ignitions, all, were as a direct result of polution mandates. Yeh, it took a few years for all to do it, but compared to the many years prior when nothing was done while these metals were available (notably stainless steel and plug technology) it was one thin dime, albeit very large and flat.
Btw, even back in the 60’s and 70’s , American car companies had technology if we remember the great Pontiac Firebird ohc motor that was highly regarded. They just refused to follow up due to profit considerations. They had the technology equal to ANY car company. They chose not to use it. “money makes the world go round” Liza Minnelli and Joel Grey
The Dodge Dart (the original) had a great reputation for reliability and longevity, yet I’ve heard Tom and Ray say they don’t think it deserved that reputation. According to them, it got that reputation simply because it was a bland looking car favored by little old ladies who took good care of their cars. I learned how to drive on a 1969 Dodge Dart (in 1989), and that car served me well. It went on to serve my brother well for years to come.
For a while, when I was driving a 1984 Mercury Marquis, I wished I had kept the Dart when my brother upgraded, but maintaining a Civic sure beats trying to find an old toothless mechanic who can maintain and fix a '69 Dodge Dart.
The slant 6 Dart/Valiant automobiles were the epitome of the ‘under stressed’ school of automotive design. A 1965 Valiant was my first dependable automobile and driving it was a humbling experience performance wise but it could be driven wide open from fill up to fill up on interstate highways without complaint and with about 5 miles of running start it would reach just past the 90 mph mark. Fuel mileage was equal to if not better than the Beetles friends drove which were the only vehicles that couldn’t beat it away from a red light.
Yeah, Dag, I can agree with a big flat dime…
In the '70s the focus of the U.S. manufacturers was on reducing costs by making the parts less expensive rather than on reducing costs by improving efficiencies and/or design. That didn’t serve them well.
Prior to the revolution of mass manufactured integrated ciircuits, technology to improve emissions while still reducing costs was limited and/or too expensive. Renenber that the technology also enabled the parts in the car to be manufactured less expensively and with far more consistancy than was every possible as well, and that consistancy and anhanced manufacturing ability is also a big factor in quality. Add to that the huge advances in materials, bonding and joining technologies, and even assembly technology, and the reaons for the big differences in quality and longeveity almost become a byproduct of cost reduction rather than an adversary of cost reduction.
In short, it took the U.S. auto industry too long to realize that improved quality using modern technologies didn’t cost money but rather became a cost reducer. “Value Engineering” simply made cheaper cars at the expense of quality and reliability. “Process Engineering” and things like “Design For Manufacturing” improved quality and reliability…and also kept the costs of the cars down, improving profits.
@ok4450 I was not singling out any particular European manufacturer. Volkswagen has done a better job than any European manufacturer in trying to address the very demanding needs of the North American market; extremes in climate, very high miles driven, casual atttitude to maintenance, high labor costs, etc. Most other manufacturers could not or made a halfhearted effort to put design changes in to meet our needs. Volkswagen dealers were well trained to service the vehicle.
Renault, Peugeot, Austin, Morris, Trumph, Fiat, Alpha Romeo, Lancia, and so on exported cars with little or no changes and insufficient technical support. Ford and GM both exported cars from Europe without spending much effort. The Saturn Astra (a GM Opel model) was one of the few cars that was worth buying. But I would worry about the dealer’s ability to provice good service.
By comparison, though, we see very fast adaptation by Korean manufacturers, who look on Toyota and Honda as role models. In the mid 80s the Hyundai Pony was a poorly built car. This year nearly all Hyundais are rated as above average in reliability. Volkswagen has been in America since I was in highschool in the 50s. Their cars still have shortcomings with respect to long life and reliability. But the requirements in Europe are much less demanding since Germans don’t keep their cars very long, drive less, and many used cars get exported to Africa and other developing regions.
This post is about long term reliability, and as others point out it takes a corporate philosophy and practices that focus on that goal.
@Whitey The best US car I had for a significant time was a 1984 Chevy Impala V8. For about the same mileage as your car, it needed:
- 2 Sets of shocks
- Front Ball joints (2 sets)
- 2 Exhaust systems, no cat replacement
- Alternator
- Heater fan motor
- Water pump
- Radiator
- Front springs (sagged)
- EGR valve
- Speedometer cable
- Fuel pump
- Complete paint job (peeling)
13 Windshield washer pump, wiper motor
All this over a similar 13-14 year period. The car was very reliable, and nearly all these repairs were done before failure occurred.
P.S. None of these expenses were severe and continued use of the car was warranted. My son finally sold it with over 300,000 miles on it when he bough a new car, but the power train was still in great shape.
Oh, damn. I knew I would forget something. I put new struts on my car at about 180,000 miles. I guess I should go back and add it to the list, although they didn’t really fail completely. I noticed a weird tread wear pattern, and my tire guy said it was a sign I needed new struts. I figured getting four new struts couldn’t hurt considering the car’s age at the time.
Since you expect struts to wear out at some point, this one really falls somewhere in between maintenance and repair. They aren’t as wearable as tires or brake pads, but you don’t usually expect them to last the life of the car either. I guess I’ll go back and edit my post to be fair.
I remember observing in elementary school that some of the school buses were more reliable than others. Unfortunately, the bus I rode was one of the most reliable in the fleet–it was a 1946 Chevrolet chassis carrying a Superior body. It would start up on sub-zero mornings and we never missed any school. Some newer buses had terrible problems starting in this weather.
The only problems I remember with the bus was that at the beginning of a school year, the bus bucked and coughed to school and back and finally a new carburetor was installed. Near the end of its life as a school bus, a rear spring broke. After its tour of duty as a school bus, it was sold to a church and served that function into the mid 1960s.
@Whitey - regarding the Dart, wouldn’t be the first time C&C were wrong. We’ve had 3 in the extended family, all were exceptionally reliable. My Duster with the 198 cid 6 crossed the country several time, twice pulling a U-Haul trailer. Never left me stranded, no rust, got totalled by somebody after I had sold it to a friend.
From my experience the Dodge Dart was EXTREMELY RELIABLE. That Slant-6 engine was bullet proof. I’ve seen them last well over 400k miles without the engine or tranny ever being torn into. One of the main problems with them (as with ALL chryco’s of that era) were the rust in the top front fenders…
My biggest complaint with the Slant 6 Valiant was that it was too easily shut down when driving in water. The distributor was hung on the low side of the engine and if water was up to the rim it would be thrown on and in the distributor and starting the engine required wading in the water to pull the cap to dry it and the point plate with CRC-556, the predecessor of WD-40. After a few soakings I learned to avoid high water when possible and creep through when unavoidable.
Every time someone says “Dodge Dart” I remember the pushbutton trannys. That was one of history’s great ideas. Never to be seen again.
@Whitey my 1995 federal emissions 7a-fe Corolla had a normal exhaust manifold. There was no warm up cat integrated into the exhaust manifold.
I am a pretty easy driver, and kept up with all of the maintenance. Literally. So I must assume it kept cracking because of a fundamental design flaw.
Google 7a-fe or 4a-fe cracked exhaust manifolds. I think you’ll find plenty of postings from guys with my exact problem.
The replacement aftermarket exhaust manifold barely lasted a year. So I’ll assume they repeated whatever mistake Toyota made.
But no hard feelings towards Toyota, because I moved on to another car some time ago. A newer Toyota, as a matter of fact.