@MikeInNH Yes, the Dart was exremenly reliable; ours had the small V8 and console shift Torqueflite auto transmission ( no push buttons). It lasted 13 years, but the salt around the Great Lakes took a toll of the body. After 13 years the powertrain was still OK, slight oil use, and even the radator was original. Towards the end of its life my wife was pulled over several times by the police doing safety checks on older cars. They never found anything to take it off the road.
When the floor boards rusted through, however, it was game over.
I would agree if it had been a brand new model. However, Honda started making the 6th generation Civic in 1996, so when I bought mine in 1999, Consumer Reports and other sources already had three years of reliability data to publish, and the Civic was performing better than other makes in its class (by a pretty large margin). In addition, the changes from the fifth generation to the sixth generation Civic were mostly cosmetic, so for the major issues, I really had seven years of reliability data to refer to.
No, luck of the draw does not apply here. Maybe if I had bought one in 1996, or bought a seventh generation Civic in 2001, you’d have a sliver of a chance of being right, but the facts are in my favor.
On the other hand, if I had bought a 1998 Ford Focus in stead of a 1998 Honda Civic, that WOULD have been “luck of the draw” since it would have been a first year first generation Focus.
@Whitey, @db4690 … good informative exchange, just fyi, my early 90’s Corolla’s 4AFE engine doesn’t combine the exh manifold w/the cat either. Separate removable parts.
I wonder if there are any theories out there why the exhaust manifolds seem to be a weak spot in these engines? It’s such a common problem it appears that it was even mentioned by Ray on the broadcast.
I guess any engine, no matter how reliable it is, it has to have at least one weak spot. There’s always one piece that isn’t quite as robust as the others. It’s a mathematical certainty. It just turned out to be the exhaust manifold on the 4AFE and 7A’s maybe.
Re Rod Knox’s post. Here’s from the Wiki reference. It says a Shay is a horse drawn two-wheeled carriage. Maybe this undesirable failure mode is why car manuf’s make sure there is always a weak link. lol …
“Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. memorialized the shay in his light poem “The Deacon’s Masterpiece or The Wonderful One-Hoss Shay”. The fictional deacon built this wonderful one horse shay so it wouldn’t break down. He built it from the very best of materials so that each part was as strong as every other part. In Holmes’ humorous, yet “logical”, twist, the shay endures for a hundred years to the day (actually to the moment of the 100th year of the Lisbon Earthquake — to the precise hour of the earthquake shock) then it “went to pieces all at once, and nothing first, — just as bubbles do when they burst.” It was built in such a “logical way” that it ran a hundred years to a day.”
@GeorgeSanJose, I can’t speak about the Corolla, but on the Civic, I can speculate that, in addition to aggressive driving, another contributing factor might be that the Civic’s exhaust manifold has a large heat shield on top of it that redirects heat back at it.
Also, these are designed to be light weight cars, so the exhaust manifolds might not be as thick-walled as those of on older cars.
@Whitey, there is a similar heat shield on the 4AFE Corolla engine. I’m thinking you may be right on the money, the heat shield may in fact be what is causing the 4AFE exhaust manifolds to sometimes crack.
I’d be afraid to remove that heat shield for reasons other than inspections. This car doesn’t have that layer of insulation on the bottom of the hood that old cars had, and all that heat might cook the paint off the hood.
I’ll second that Whitey! Removing something defined as a heat shield is likely to invoke the law of unintended consequences. This law becomes clear when you’re standing by the side of the road watching your car burning down and realize that perhaps you did not fully understand or heed its intended purpose.
Even someone who is very mechanically skilled or minded could be bit by this. Imagine the scenario where you have assessed the heat shield and its function and decided that removing it poses little risk. You monitor it very closely for the first few days. Nothing seems to be getting overly hot, all seems OK. Over time, you gradually lose concern for it as nothing bad has happened until you almost forget you even took it off. Then one day your engine starts running rich, the manifold and cat get orange hot and the next thing you know, some dude next to you is frantically motioning to get your attention. This history plays back in your mind as you stand on the side of the road with the faint sounds of sirens in the distance. At that point, the cost of a cracked manifold seems inconsequential…This is not even the worst case scenario!
There are many parts on a car that might seem like overkill or unnecessary. For 99% of the population that might be true. Some of those parts are on there for a very good reason; they mitigate a risk with a severe consequence. It’s the 1% chance that you will hit the hazard lottery and bad things will result. It’s been said many times on this board, car makers don’t typically install things without a very good reason. If they could eliminate it, they would to save money.
It is my opinion that that one little item which every car has is the single biggest reason for longevity. The part? The NUT BEHIND THE WHEEL! The driver. Driving habits and owner maintenance by far (IMO) determine vehicle longevity. I’m just now retiring my '89 Accord with just over 585,000 miles on it. I’m a PIA driving it and servicing it, careful and methodical. But it lasted almost forever, alas rust never sleeps and she’s getting unsafe underneath, I’m going to have my body man friend check it out when the weather gets better. I’ve been fixing stuff on it for years, but good maintenance and careful driving habits will go a long way. Original clutch. Original motor. Original tranny. Never opened up beyond valve stem seals. Over 30 mpg. Uses little oil, maybe 1/2 quart per oil change (3000 miles). I’ll let you guys know when I decide to retire it for good. Rocketman
Couldn’t a manifold with a missing heat shield be considered visually defective or visually altered?
As far as removing it, I’m just giving OP an idea.
Personally, I no longer have the problem with the cracked exhaust manifolds, because I got rid of that car some time ago.
@Whitey@TwinTurbo here’s something interesting to consider. Perhaps that heat shield isn’t really that important.
Some Toyota Camrys with the 2AZ-FE engine have the heat shield installed. Some left the factory without it! If those without it don’t have blistered paint on the hood, perhaps it’s not that important in the grand scheme of things. As far as that car’s concerned.
Some heat shields were part of the induction system, channeling hot air to the carburetor. But on the fuel injected models the heat shields may be to prevent severe burns when someone is not paying attention adding oil, etc. But for sure some shields are needed due to the proximity of various hoses, reservoirs and devices. The Toyota pickups come to mind as the master cylinder with its plastic reservoir was quite close to the exhaust manifold I wouldn’t walk home if I found a heat shield missing but I wouldn’t get far from home without it unless it was quite apparent that it was unnecessary. And there have been quite a few automobiles that left the factory without a heat shield when one was badly needed. Years ago oil was sold in metal cans and they were easily cut and bent to “red neck engineer” heat shields.
All this exhausting heat shield talk and I’ve never took the heat shield off my 4AFE engine! But maybe my Corolla’s exhaust manifold is indeed cracked, if I were to look under the heat shield I would see it? Should I be concerned? I’ve never bothered because I’ve never noticed unexpected exhaust-like noises coming from the engine compartment. Wouldn’t a cracked exhaust manifold be pretty noticable? Loud firecracker like noises? Or could it be cracked and still not be noticeable except by visual inspection? This early 90’s Corolla does have the somewhat high HC emissions problem, and a leaking exhaust manifold could contribute to something like that.
