There appears to be no difference in reliability for Honda, Toyota, or other brands between US plants and Japanese plants.
Detroit was caught with their pants down when the oil crisis hit and the Japanese government supported the push to sell automobiles to the US while they continued to severely restrict American products from the Japanese markets.
It wasn’t that restrict…The US manufacturers IGNORED the Japanese market…mainly because of the right hand steering. The US manufacturers thought it would cost too much to retool to sell to a limited market. The only cars that were selling well in Japan were the small cars which US automakers didn’t have. The smaller the vehicle the LESS profit…add that to retooling for a right-hand steering vehicle and it just wasn’t worth the effort.
How reliable are the automobiles from these factories?
Based on my experiences…EXTREMELY reliable. I had a total of $4 in repairs on wifes Accord (made in the US) when we gave it to our niece with over 240k miles on it. I’ve yet to see the American vehicle come within 100 times the repair bill we had…NOT EVEN close.
I would argue that the greatest factor is the manufacturer’s culture.
Post-WWII, the Japanese had virtually no choice but to rebuild. In order to rejoin the world’s economic community again, they had to find ways to do things they not only sought out, but embraced now approaches to manufacturing that focused on the process rather than the parts, techniques that reduced variation and opportunities for problems. The guru of Statistical Process Control, Deming, was considered to have really wacko theories by the U.S. manufacturing industry, but his ideas were considered by the Japanese without boas and readily accepted. Theoroes like Design For Manufacture (DFM), which espouse design approaches that preclude assembly errors as welll as designing to reduce the number or parts (each considered an opportunity for problems) were rejected by the U.S. and embraced by the Japanese.
In the 1980s, despite these approaches being well understoood and thoroughly proven by that time, U.S. auttomobile manufacturers were still struggling to accept them. Every week was a new “magic bean” gleaned out of context from Japanese manufacturing philosophies. Success was poor, because the management culture didn’t change. After attending a “Motorola University” SPC training program for engineers in Illinois, I had an opportunity to tour their manufacturing facility. The guys there told me candidly that after beta testing SPC successfully, it was now being applied to countless areas where it was of no benefit. Management thought the acronym was the magic bean. They didn’t really understand the focus on process and reduction in variation. They still at that time did not understand it as a too to analyze process capabilities and anomolies, a tool to recognize problems before thay occured, a tool to analyze and improve the performance of the “hard tooling” to meet the real needs of the design.
Value Steam Mapping is another process that if applied properly is very powerful. Done right, it eliminates all activities that are not directly beneficial to the product, and it includes customer satisfaction and meeting delivery dates as part of the product. Everything starting with the marketing act is part of the product in some way or other. The only “nonproductive” activities left should be those required for regulatory compliance.
The tools for quality, reliable product have existed for decades, Japan’s communal culture and their desperation to rebuild and join the global economy again after WWII made them embrace the techniques that create quality and reliability. It wasn’t until the '80s, when the Japanese made serious inroads into the U.S. marketplace, that our automotive manufacturers began to seek these technologies out, and it wasn’t until the turn of the century that these ideas became really accepted in and integrated into the U.S. manufacturing facilities that progress really began. Prior to that time, the U.S. auto manufacturers tried to compete by hiring “value engineers”, whose sole function was to reduce the cost of every part and every assembly as low as possible.
I spent a few weeks in Japan in 1970 and found that Harley Davidsons and Mustangs were highly prized but they were very rarely seen because buying any American vehicle required the customer to pre-pay the full price including individual shipping charges and a tariff. And upon arrival in Japan each vehicle was required to pass an individual inspection that was quite pricey and annual registration was quite expensive also. Tokyo was quite successful in discouraging people from buying American.
I used to work at a Honda dealership, and I can tell you the service Bays were full every day… Bad transmissions, bad motor mounts, main electrical buss, valve seats falling out, bad vtec oil sensors… Don’t tell me Hondas a perfect. Toyota has bad head on some of there 4 cyls, sludge issues in there 6 cyls, etc…
To the op’s original question, there us no way to simulate years of ownership I’m every driving condition, and situation. They try there best, but some cars just have issues from day one, it happens to all makes not just American. They are design issues and they usually effect thousands of cars… That I’d why when we see some cars over heating e say thermostat, but others such as Subaru we say hed gasket…Subaru in general of a particular vintagehave head gasket issues…
In 40 plus years of driving and having relatives work in a variety of car dealerships including ,any of those mentioned I have come to this conclusion. It’s all about choice and where each company wants to allocate their funds to maximize their long and short term profit. EVERY car company is capable of making the most reliable car EVER made with the in house engineers and funds.
They make choices to make reliability and more importantly, the perception of reliability to a level they feel will maximize their profits. Car companies literally turned on a dime and made great improvements, collectively in reliability just through the federal mandates on emission controls. Companies that made the Vega and the Kcar parts contract with the military to make some of the most reliable hardware the world has ever seen. Fleet car business and high turn over, profits from service and repair which account for more then half of dealer profits and keep subcontractor loborers making parts is important for long term employment. Cars are expendables and are made to be replaced in order to grow the economy.
I agree that Hondas and Toyotas are more reliable then many other brands, but not because the others are incapable. Instead, because that is the nitch each has carved out in order to maximize their own profits. Perception is more important in car sales then reality, but cars do have to be realistically more reliable over time if they are to be precieved that way.
Dag, I agree with your first paragraph, but it took the '70s and '80s for U.S auto manufacturers to even get the hint that they’d need to change to compete globally and the '90s for them to begin to make real changes. I’d be reluctant to call that “turning on a dime”.
After reading some of the other responses, let me go on record as saying that I disagree with idea that maintenance is more important then car selection. No amount of maintenance can make a less then ideal maintainable scheduled Corolla break down earlier then a Fiat Strata (aka Yugo). BOTH are equally important.
You want the best service from your car ? start with the most reliable vehicles, then follow manufacturers reconmendations or better.
@RodKnox Agree with texases; the unique skill Japanses companies have it to manufacture virtually anywhere and adhere to the same stiff quality standards as in the homeland. In some cases offshore plants are so good that they produce cars for sale in Japan. Japanese companies pick a location where they can train workers from the ground up. Honda looks for positive attitude and aptitude; and prefers workers with no experience in US auto plants. You may have noticed that they build their plants as far away from Detroit as they can. Kentucky farm boys are a lot easier to train than UAW workers with a “bugger you” attitude. In fact rumour has it that anyone who was ever member of a union need not apply at Honda.
Just recently Toyota opened a new production line for a Lexus Hybrid SUVs in …Canada. That plant will make that specific model for the whole world. Likewise both Honda and Toyota have built low volume 2 door coupes in Canada for export to Japan.
In Mexico and Europe Japanese cars are tops in quality. Jeremy Clarke, the British car entertainer recently bragged that Britain now produces the best quality cars in Europe. He was right, but he did not mention that these quality cars were all built in Japanese car plants there. The native British car industry is virtuallly dead.
Mazda will built their Mazda 2 and next model Mazda3 in Mexico. I have no qualms about buying a Mazda, Nissan or Toyota built in Mexico, but I won’t touch a Volkswagen built there. That Puebla plant of VW has been plaqued with problems, both labor and quality; the Germans seem to have problems with both.
In summary, you can apply world class quality reliability concepts anywhere if you work at it.
Funny you should mention Jeremy Clarke’s comments. Top Gear just chose the Toyota/Subie/Scion coupe as their Car of the Year.
Don't tell me Hondas a perfect.
I don’t know where you got that from. I searched and searched…and NO ONE EVER SAID Honda’s are perfect. Could you please show me where someone stated that. It’s ALWAYS easier to argue against something no one said.
But to follow that statement…Are Honda’s perfect?? Of course they aren’t. Each company will have problems. Just that from my experience (and the experience from MILLIONS of other people world wide)…they tend to have LESS problems.
Right up until Pontiac was eliminated from GM’s lineup a friend of mine from Highschool owned a Pontiac Nissan and GMC truck dealership. Right from the start when he bought the Nissan dealership…Nissans were outselling Pontiacs at his dealership almost 2:1. Yet there were twice as many Pontiacs in for warranty work and other repairs then the Nissans. That would make it a 4:1 repair ratio of Pontiacs to Nissans.
Toyota has bad head on some of there 4 cyls, sludge issues in there 6 cyls
Agree…but what’s the life span of these problems…I know the 6 cylinder sludge problem lasted about 3 years…
Now lets look at GM’s V6 and V8 intake manifold problem…or their light truck Ball-joint problem.
The Intake manifold problem lasted well over a decade…and ball-joint problem lasted something like 15 years. GM decided NOT to take care of the problem when clearly it was a known issue for a long long time.
Dag said it as clearly as it can be said:
“You want the best service from your car ? start with the most reliable vehicles, then follow manufacturers reconmendations or better.”
There is no better indicator of good probability for future reliability than the empirical data. There are numerous sources, and for many of us our own experiences.
And no vehicle will remain reliable and last long if neglected or abused. Nor, for that matter, will any other machine.
The speed at which problems are resolved enhances a company’s reputation. Clarke Gable, the movie star, was the first American to buy a Jaguar XK-120 in 1949. It overheated in L A traffic, as did all other Jags. It was not till 1963!!! with the XK-E that a larger radiator with 2 fans was installed in Jags. On the other hand, Japan haters were rubbing their hands with glee when Toyota had all these recalls. It seems they recovere very quickly from any bad press and buyer once more flocked to the showrooms.
US carmakers’ reaction has alwways been 1) there is no broblem, it’s the customer, and 2) hire expensive lawyers to “prove” there is no problem.
The slowness for GM in fixing various components, including the intake manifold gaskets, is legendary. It was not for lack of talent; the company just took a “good enough” attitude and compared warranty claims with the fixing cost. Bean counters have always ruled the roost at GM, intil bankruptcy. Hopefull those bad days are behind us.
That does not mean that GM did not produce some good cars; the full size rear drive models with 3 speed automatic were good taxi and police cars. They could have been a good deal better with more attention to detail.
Question for Docnick. You stated that the European car makers just flat do not care about their North American customers, etc.
After working for VW and SAAB I did not see that to be true at all.
So where do you glean that bit of info from?
I think @gsragtop hit the nail on the head.
EVERY manufacturer has its problem child car, engine, transmission, etc.
All of us that worked at dealerships know this to be true.
Some manufacturers are better at sweeping their problems under the rug.
Some manufacturers eventually do the right thing and issue voluntary recalls.
Some manufacturers never come clean.
Some manufacturers blame the customer until Uncle Sam steps in and beats down on them.
I have personally seen all of these scenarios.
There are several aspects to consider with the longevity of automobiles. A simple, under stressed chassis and drive train that is relatively simple to repair and maintain might outlast the most current state of the art model that owners are compelled to have maintained at factory trained shops. And the total cost of ownership of the basic model would be drastically cheaper. I have owned a few high performance toys but most of my daily drivers have been from the basic category. I recall a BMW shop manual from years ago that listed as maintenance at 60,000 miles, "remove the cylinder head and pan, clean, de-carbon, inspect, repair and replace as necessary.
"EVERY manufacturer has its problem child car, engine, transmission, etc"
We all knew this back in the 1940s through the 1960s. Examples: the 1955 Buick automatic transmission (Dynaflow) was quite troublesome. The flathead Ford V-8 had a tendency to overheat because the exhaust gases passed right over the water jacket. The Chevrolet “stove bolt” 6 had a tendency to leak oil, the Studebaker “planar” suspension used through 1949 had problems holding an alignment. Pontiac in the late 1960s had problems with the timing gear. I haven’t really kept up with modern cars very much, but from what I read, the GM intake manifold gaskets were a problem and I did have to have an intake manifold gasket replaced on a 1993 Oldsmobile I owned.
I do think that back in the time period of the 1940s through the 1960s, we were more tolerant of some of these problems. The 1954 Buick that I considered reliable back in the 1960s would be thought of as a money pit today.
One thing to consider is that Honda will release a new car overseas and work out the kinks before releasing it in the American market. That has gone a long way towards improving their reputation. From what I’m told, the first generation Honda Civic was a terrible car.
Luck of the draw, owner care an I still abide by, do not get cars made, dental work, or Dr stuff done on a Monday or Friday. Now in my list of superstitions I think you have to add not to hate your car, as it seems if you are buds with your car it treats you better.
“Luck of the draw”? Really? I’m proud to say that the one car I purchased for myself in 1999, and I’m still driving, was a choice I thoroughly researched, and that research has paid off. I can count on one hand the items that needed repaired (outside of regular maintenance). Let me see if I can remember them all:
- Catalytic Converter/exhaust manifold
- Struts (front and rear)
- Radiator
- Rear brake cylinders
- Clutch safety switch
That’s not bad for 14 years and 234,000 miles. I doubt I’d still be driving on the original clutch if I had bought something else.