I read about warm up and cool down today, for just what you discussed. The CX-7 is toast, but I drive a MOPAR '13 and it has a1.4L turbo. I use full synthetic and the car tells me when to change the oil. I think the SUV is ready for the scrap heap. $15k loss and a new $500 monthly car payment.
What a horrible experience this has been.
I appreciate your feedback. It was right on the money.
keith
December 26
OK, what you should have done and what they should have done is in the past. Better communication probably would have headed some of this off. If you are going to get this car back with a rebuilt motor and a new turbo, my suggestion is that you use a full synthetic oil in the future. Mobil 1 EP or Penzoil Platinum would be good choices. I would also recommend changing the oil every 5 or 6k miles from now on.
But here is one more thing your wife could do. When she arrives at her destination on each trip, let the motor idle for three minutes before shutting down. This will cool the turbo charger bearing down by quite a bit. Then when the engine is shut down, the little remaining oil trapped in the bearing wonāt have to absorb as much heat.
A hot shutdown is when most of the oil damage is occurring. A teaspoon or so of oil is now absorbing all the heat from a red hot turbocharger. That breaks down the oil very quickly. This is where and when the sludge that damaged your engine is forming. So a cool down period and using an oil with the highest thermal breakdown will go a long way to preventing sludge from forming in the future.
Iām not big on a long warm up, but for turbo engines, or any engine that I am running hard and hot, I do go for a cool down period before shutdown.
You appear to accept the advice that gives you a pat on the back to some degree.
Your new Mopar that ātells me when to change the oilā can also very easily leave your new Mopar in the same sludged condition as your old Mazda.
Those onboard Oil Life Monitors quite often leave car owners with either prematurely damaged or ruined engines simply because the OLM change interval is also too lengthy and also does not take other considerations into account which lead to oil sludging or coking. That would be environmental conditions such as dust and humidity, fuel types, and so on.
A little late to this party, but I have a question: Was there any confirmation by anyone other than the dealership who replaced the turbo that the motor was actually sludged up?
We seem to be going in circles a bit here, and itās entirely impossible for the experienced mechanics here to come to a concrete determination without being to inspect the engine and turbo in question. But let me restate what I thinkā¦
When your turbo failed the first time it was a symptom of a failed engine. Yes, I agree that the shop was sloppy or did a rush job by not searching for or addressing the sludge issue that caused the turbo failure. However, despite other responses youāve had above, once there is enough sludge to cause turbo failure, the engine is done for. There is no amount of scraping, cleaning, flushing, or whatever, that can reliably and completely remove that kind of sludge from an engine.
Bottom line, your car needed an engine when the first turbo failed. No matter if you replace the turbo oil feed and return lines and clean the oil pan and valve covers and PCV system, there is still sludge on all the internal surfaces of the engine that can not be removed without entire engine removal and disassembly.
Your wife should have been sold an engine and a turbo at the first visit. Or alternately given the option of spending a couple hundred dollars labor to investigate if there was a sludge problem. But assuming that the engine was sludged up 12K miles ago, the issue now is that you were not sold an engineāor told that you needed an engineāat the first visit.
What are you looking for in reparations from the dealer?
It sounds as if youāve already walked away from the car, is that right? That would make the car a total loss for you. The cost, at a local independent shop, to replace the engine with a good used one, should be far less than what you could sell the car for on the open market. A clean, straight, well-maintained 4-5 year old car is a great candidate for used engine transplant, then giving you more service from the car or several thousand dollars from a sale.
I have to admit, itās nice to hear from someone that isnāt so quick to throw me under the bus. I totally admit I could and should have done better regarding oil changes.
My point isā¦the dealer said nothing about any problems, slapped a new turbo on my car, took my money and sent me on my merry way.
Thatās bs.
Thatās good to know about vehicle oil monitors. I live in a mild environment and spend most of my driving on the interstate. I plan on changing my synthetic oil every 7,500 miles.
Se nt v!ia the Samsung Galaxy S6 edge+, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original message --------From: ok4450 cartalk@discoursemail.com Date: 12/25/2016 11:51 PM (GMT-06:00) To: kevin.weisinger@gmail.com Subject: [Car Talk Community] [Maintenance/Repairs] Turbocharger Replacement
ok4450
December 26
Two comments; and you may not like either.
You appear to accept the advice that gives you a pat on the back to some degree.
Your new Mopar that ātells me when to change the oilā can also very easily leave your new Mopar in the same sludged condition as your old Mazda.
Those onboard Oil Life Monitors quite often leave car owners with either prematurely damaged or ruined engines simply because the OLM change interval is also too lengthy and also does not take other considerations into account which lead to oil sludging or coking. That would be environmental conditions such as dust and humidity, fuel types, and so on.
I heard that. I didnāt realize the problems a turbo presents, but now I know. I hate that it cost me a car and the cost of buying a replacement vehicle.
I am furious that itās not mandatory to change oil, oil filter, air filter and fuel filter when replacing a turbo.
Most parents donāt have to be told to wipe a baby before putting on a clean diaper. Thatās no different than replacing a turbo.
Not one person on this site made any comments about the dealer not diagnosing why the turbo failed, make an effort to correct that problem, make sure the oil eco system was cleaned up to prevent particulates/oil contamination from creating further problems and then explain to the customer what they found and what service needs to be done to minimize problems in the future.
What I keep hearing isā¦your fault dude for not changing your oil every 3,500 miles.
Mazda Service is supposed to be the expertā¦not the average car owner.
Am I wrong?-------- Original message --------From: BillRussell cartalk@discoursemail.com Date: 12/26/2016 6:45 AM (GMT-06:00) To: kevin.weisinger@gmail.com Subject: [Car Talk Community] [Maintenance/Repairs] Turbocharger Replacement
BillRussell
December 26
ok4450:
Oil Life Monitors
I agree, I would not trust one of these. Change the oil every 6k miles of 6 months. The cost is minimal compared to the cost of a new engine.
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To
ok4450
December 26
Two comments; and you may not like either.
You appear to accept the advice that gives you a pat on the back to some degree.
Your new Mopar that ātells me when to change the oilā can also very easily leave your new Mopar in the same sludged condition as your old Mazda. Those onboard Oil Life Moniā¦
No one said sludge was a problem. We found the problem when the turbo and motor seized 12k miles after Mazda replaced the turbo the first time.
When I asked the service manager why they didnāt change the contaminated oil. He said he was worried about adding additional cost to the $2,900 they quoted me to do the job.
He said people yell at them all the time for jacking up the price. It should have been in the original quote in the first place. I actually requested an oil change, because it was time.
They had my car for 7 days, why wouldnāt anyone have whatever sheduled service needed to be completed done during that week? (Unless they didnāt have the money)
How stupid! Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S6 edge+, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original message --------From: NYBo cartalk@discoursemail.com Date: 12/26/2016 9:04 AM (GMT-06:00) To: kevin.weisinger@gmail.com Subject: [Car Talk Community] [Maintenance/Repairs] Turbocharger Replacement
NYBo
December 26
A little late to this party, but I have a question: Was there any confirmation by anyone other than the dealership who replaced the turbo that the motor was actually sludged up?
At this pointā¦the car is DOA in my driveway.
Iām so worn out fighting this uphill battle, Iād be happy if the dealer made me a good deal on one of their 17 dealerships preowned vehicles at a reduced rate, give a little something for my CX-7 and Iāll pay the difference. That would keep me from feeling like a complete SUCKER!
I know who they are now and will protect myself with an extended warranty that consumer reports recommend. Most warranty companies canāt be trusted.
My only option, since it doesnāt look like the little guy is going to win this battle.
Without documentation specifying the mechanic must change the oil, oil filter, air filter and fuel filterā¦even though Iām hard pressed to find any reputable mechanic that will replace a defective turbo and not do those thingsā¦I donāt see how I can prevail in a court of law.
The only thing I have in my favor is to let the dealership know, Iāll do and say everything I can to inform the dealerās local community what I uncovered during my investigation.
*D- BBB rating w/36 unresolved customer complaints and 52 complaints overall.
*9 Unresolved cases with the Oklahoma Attorney Generals office.
*Iāll share my story via social media. The dealer has a Facebook page.
*Paint my dead car with messages and tow it to the Mazda dealers front entrance.
Iāll just be sure to only share what I can substantiate.
Iām that pissed off!
NYBo
December 26
Considering your experience with them, why would you want to buy another vehicle from them?
I donāt know what it would take to deal with the sludge issueā¦if there was a sludge problem, they should have found the problem and given me a choice on the next steps.
When my wife drove away, we thought all is well. She was driving a ticking time-bomb. They could have at least told her how often we need to change the oil and recommend a specific oil typeā¦blendā¦synthetic. ā¦etc. If the option was not to fix the car and replace the engineā¦I needed to know that too.
We were told nothing and provided no options.
Sent. . via the Samsung Galaxy S6 edge+, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original message --------From: VDCdriver cartalk@discoursemail.com Date: 12/25/2016 3:24 PM (GMT-06:00) To: kevin.weisinger@gmail.com Subject: [Car Talk Community] [Maintenance/Repairs] Turbocharger Replacement
VDCdriver
December 25
keith:
If sludge had built up in the engine, you canāt just flush it out. It has to be scrapped out mechanically, scrapers and stiff brushes. Some disassembly required.
ā¦and the vehicleās warranty would not cover the MAJOR disassembly and scraping-out of the engine that would be required to rid it of that accumulated sludge. If the dealership had presented the OP with a bill forā¦letās sayā¦$1,000ā¦for the necessary work to rid his engine of that sludge, my guess is that he would have posted a protest at that point regarding that totally valid charge. Ergoāhe would have been an unhappy customer in this situation, no matter how it played out.
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To
keith
December 25
Couple of things I noted here. I do feel for you on this and it wasn't fair to criticize you until you answered the questions that @VCDdriver first asked. It might have helped though if you had responded a little sooner with those answers.
If sludge had built up in the engine, you canāt just fluā¦
You can try an approach based on the idea of āstandard of careā in tort law. If you can show that āreputable mechanicsā would do the oil work, AND āreputable mechanicsā would NOT skip the oil work, you can use that type of survey evidence to argue that the dealer did not meet the minimal requirements and so is liable.
Youāre right, thatās my best bet. The largest award in Oklahoma small claims court is $7,500, which is $2,500 better than most states.
My burden of proof is āBeyond the preponderance of the evidenceā, which is less than ābeyond a reasonable doubtā. I donāt live in Oklahoma. Iām pretty sure Iāll need a few reputable witnesses in court to explain why they recommend changing oil and related items to ensure the best result. The judge probably will not allow āhear sayā evidence.
Any other suggestions, would be appreciated.
Thanks!
That wonāt be enough. You will also have to prove that not changing the oil at that time was the cause of the current failure and I donāt think you will be able to do that. You might prove that it would have delayed the failure by a small amount, but I think the dealership will be able to prove that the failure was inevitable. It is appearing that the failure was inevitable due to bad design and inadequate recommended maintenance schedule by the manufacturer.
First, maybe you can check whether OK small claims (or some other court process) is limited to parties (no lawyers by either side). That can help a lot because the dealer would have to either settle or send some employee to represent them.
Second, you would be dealing with tort law. Basically, you need to show a number of things to win: 1) injury/damage to you (in the form of engine damage); 2) that the injury was caused by the dealer because they 3) breached/failed in a duty, that 4) they owed to you.
Item #1 you seem to have in hand.
The idea of survey evidence from āreputable mechanicsā deals with #3 and 4, and you donāt have to have witnesses. You can do things by written declaration by witnesses. But you will have to have some sort of survey/sampling of āreputable mechanicsā without picking and choosing only those who agree with you. And consider this from the judgeās POV, which includes no automotive knowledge. Exactly what was the duty owed to you?
And consider it from the other side too: can they shoot this down with something like ātheir only duty was to deal with the turbocharger R&R, especially given the circumstances at the time when you were already sensitive about $3k for the repairā (as an example)?
Item #2 is important and might turn out to be the hardest. You need to show that the dealerās failure is the "cause-in-factā of your injury AND the āproximate (or legal) causeā of the injury. These two arenāt easy. Can you show the first to be so based on āpreponderance of the evidenceā? Also consider it from the other side too: can they shoot this down with something like āthe further sludging of your engine over 12k miles is the cause in factā (as an example).
And the second āproximate causeā means you have to show (by a preponderance of the evidence) that their failure to perform the oil service AND/OR failure to look into sludging possibilities AND/OR tell you to change the oil more often, was the legal cause of your injury. One way to check if you got this one is whether ābut forā the dealerās failure, your injury would have occurred. Again, consider it from the other side too: what can they argue as a legal cause unconnected to them?
I understand your argument Kevin; i.e. you take responsibility for the first turbo failure (b/c you didnāt follow the recommended oil changer intervals, etc), but not for the second turbo failure. You say the shop is at least partly responsible for that one b/c the second failure could have been prevented (in your opinion) had the shop done all that was prudent (including changing the oil & filter) when fixing it the first time. Whether that argument holds water or not depends to a great extent on the exact wording of Mazdaās repair procedure for turbo replacement. Itās usually possible to find a used copy (or pdf download) of the factory service manual via an internet search. Give that a try, then youāll know for certain. Sometimes the manufacture provides an internet view of the FSM for a small fee for owners too. If you simply canāt find the actual FSM, you can always subscribe to a diyāer AllData account. That is reasonably priced, covers your make/model/year, and provides an abridged version of the FSM. That source is what many shops use in fact to reference the procedures.
As I recall one of the experts above said theyād looked at the written procedure and it didnāt mention changing the oil. If so, I think itās going to be tough to get the dealership to help. & note that it is possible the second turbo failure had nothing to do with not changing the oil. It might have failed even if the oil had been changed.
In OK either or both parties may have an attorney present during a small claims case.
No matter; the failure to change the motor oil had zero, zilch, nada to do with the turbocharger and engine failure.
I will also say this. Bob Moore is a very well known and long established auto dealer with big bucks. Even if the assumption is made that their actions contributed to any and all failures here that does not mean the judge will rule against them.
OK has more than their share of biased and/or moronic judges.
If the judge drives a car purchased from Bob Moore or shares a tee time with some of the management odds are you will be toast no matter what.
Fair enoughā¦
It seems reasonable, whatever caused the original turbo to failā¦caused the replacement turbo to fail.
Iām upset the dealership did not diagnose the reason the turbo failed and make an attempt to correct the problem. Whatever was uncovered by the dealerā¦if anythingā¦nothing was communicated to me.
Was there engine sludge that caused oil starvation to the turbo?
Was an attempt made to correct the problem?
If the problem was unable to be completely corrected, to what degree was the engine sludge reduced?
If additional costs are required to correct the problem, how much will it cost and what is the risk if I donāt?
I am irritated that no one told me anything about anything. Iām also not happy that all the mechanics I spoke with (minimum of 10), Google searches I made and YouTube videos I watchedā¦all recommend changing the oil, oil filter and air filter.
The only mechanic that didnāt do so, was the āONEā that worked on my SUV.
If the dealer simply included the cost of an oil change, oil filter, air filter and fuel filter to my 3 page invoice, they would have ensured they cannot be held responsible and also wouldnāt have to replace another turbo while under warranty. Win-Win-Win for the dealer.
They do it right.2. The chance of having to replace a turbo on their dime has been greatly minimized.3. I have to pay for the added service fees, not them.
The only risk the dealer takes by doing it the right way, is I choose not to have them perform the serviceā¦even though they know I live 6 hours away and my vehicle is undrivable.
The above reasons are why I am holding the dealer partly responsible. If they had half a brain, they would meet me half wayā¦whatever that isā¦ (Bob Moore has 17 dealerships in Oklahoma City and Tulsa) and imediately send out a company bulletin to always change the oil, oil filter and air filter when replacing a defective turbo. They should include the cost to the customer, but they should include it.
If Bob Moore doesnāt step upā¦I will get even!
I have the BBB (D-) and Oklahoma Attorney Generals office (9 Unresolved complaints) on my side.-------- Original message --------From: GeorgeSanJose cartalk@discoursemail.com Date: 12/27/2016 8:49 PM (GMT-06:00) To: kevin.weisinger@gmail.com Subject: [Car Talk Community] [Maintenance/Repairs] Turbocharger Replacement
GeorgeSanJose
December 28
I understand your argument Kevin; i.e. you take responsibility for the first turbo failure (b/c you didnāt follow the recommended oil changer intervals, etc), but not for the second turbo failure. You say the shop is at least partly responsible for that one b/c the second failure could have been prevented (in your opinion) had the shop done all that was prudent (including changing the oil & filter) when fixing it the first time. Whether that argument holds water or not depends to a great extent on the exact wording of Mazdaās repair procedure for turbo replacement. Itās usually possible to find a used copy (or pdf download) of the factory service manual via an internet search. Give that a try, then youāll know for certain. Sometimes the manufacture provides an internet view of the FSM for a small fee for owners too. If you simply canāt find the actual FSM, you can always subscribe to a diyāer AllData account. That is reasonably priced, covers your make/model/year, and provides an abridged version of the FSM. That source is what many shops use in fact to reference the procedures.
As I recall one of the experts above said theyād looked at the written procedure and it didnāt mention changing the oil. If so, I think itās going to be tough to get the dealership to help. & note that it is possible the second turbo failure had nothing to do with not changing the oil. It might have failed even if the oil had been changed.
You are correct, but I can cost them much more than they cost me. Between social media and what I plan to do with my dead Mazda CX-7 will send many Oklahomans to Bob Mooreās competitors.
As a matter of fact, after what you just told meā¦I plan to contact Bob Mooreās competition in the morning and see if they can use my story to benefit their dealerships. What Iām requesting is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of what BM will lose in business.
Iāll only share the facts of what actually happened and BMs D- BBB rating and publish the number of cases the Attorney General has filed against BM. All public information.
I had to buy a car for my wife to replace the CX-7. My neighbor is a master mechanic for Volkswagen and he suggested I buy a Toyota or Honda for reliability. In my opinion, Toyota lacked a sporty looking car, so I purchased a 2016 Honda Accord 2 door Coupe Touring V6 (287hpā¦fully aspirated engine) No more turbos for meā¦
Russell Chevrolet Honda in Little Rock has been in business since 1962 and is accredited with the BBB and has an A+ rating. BM isnāt even accredited with the BBB. Itās not slander, if itās true. -------- Original message --------From: ok4450 cartalk@discoursemail.com Date: 12/27/2016 11:54 PM (GMT-06:00) To: kevin.weisinger@gmail.com Subject: [Car Talk Community] [Maintenance/Repairs] Turbocharger Replacement
ok4450
December 28
In OK either or both parties may have an attorney present during a small claims case.
No matter; the failure to change the motor oil had zero, zilch, nada to do with the turbocharger and engine failure.
I will also say this. Bob Moore is a very well known and long established auto dealer with big bucks. Even if the assumption is made that their actions contributed to any and all failures here that does not mean the judge will rule against them.
OK has more than their share of biased and/or moronic judges.
If the judge drives a car purchased from Bob Moore or shares a tee time with some of the management odds are you will be toast no matter what.
