Many service writers would do better if they:
- Dialed back the up-sell bs.
- Have a brief consult with a mechanic when a customer has a problem the service writer doesn’t understand.
Long talk with Toyota corporate customer service Put my concerns on record, clarified for me the nuanced details of my full warranty rights as well as limitations. I now have the names of the service manager and general manager. I know this is a small independent dealer with no dedicated customer relations person. I know that they may not have a loaner car but if not Toyota Corp. might share cost of a rental. Or the dealership might be willing to provide shuttle service.
Interestingly, when buying the car a year ago I asked about loaner cars if a warranty issue arose requiring the car remain in the shop and was told absolutely never a problem but now have heard both dealership and corporate say otherwise. At least knowledge gives me leverage in any potential negotiation this could lead to.
Corporate recommends that rather than just save all service work orders like I always do that I always request a printout with my full concerns documented even when “problem not duplicated” is the result. The Chevy dealer always did that as a matter of record but I shall have to request (insist if necessary) the Toyota dealer does so.
Of course, I continue the habit @ok4450 suggested years ago of always writing out my own detailed, concise, bullet point for easy reading format description of requested service and/or problem/s I have brought the car in for. I always make three copies – one I keep, one for the service writer, and one left in the car for the tech.
We will see what tomorrow brings at the dealer service department.
Sorry!!! I forgot to access the full site rather than mobile. That’s why everything ran together in a mega paragraph.
Car appt delayed until next week at my request due to minor non-auto emergency I need to deal with next few days.
I will pester you long suffering good folks next week.
@Marnet–I want to reiterate what others have said about you being a very savvy person.
Regarding, “Junior tried to tell me that the binding of the door was normal. When I insisted that the other three doors did not bind nor had any doors on the cars I test drove, he merely had a tech put a dab of lube on the hinge and insisted that was all it needed.”– while apparently that situation was resolved, for future reference please allow me to share my experience with a service writer who thought that he would get the best of me:
One of the door lock buttons on my brand-new Chevy Citation vibrated and rattled constantly and was an incredible annoyance. When the car was at the dealership for its first oil change, I mentioned this problem and the service writer, who was obviously on a work-release program from the state penitentiary (No, I am not kidding…) said, “Oh, that’s the way that it’s supposed to be”.
My response was, “Well, I certainly want everything on the car to operate as it is supposed to operate, so when I come back to pick up the car, please make sure that ALL of the door lock buttons rattle and vibrate the same as the one on the driver’s door. If they don’t all rattle and vibrate the same way as the one on the driver’s door, then I will know that there is a massive defect in my car, and I will have to refer it to the folks on the corporate level.”
Since I knew that it would take much more time and effort to open up 3 doors and loosen the properly-operating lock mechanisms than it would take to simply fix the clearly loose one, I felt that it was worthwhile to call his bluff as I did. Yes, I was taking a chance, but even a mental midget like that service writer was able to realize that I had figured-out that he was trying to dance around the issue, rather than actually dealing with it.
Guess what?
When I picked up the car, the door lock button on the driver’s door had been fixed.
Sometimes, you just have to call their bluff…
UPDATE 4/29:
New hubcap installed.
As to the torque converter…
Arrived for my appointment to discover service writer #2 wouldn’t even look at me, speak to me, or acknowledge my greeting. Junior obviously had been detailed to handle me again. He was genuinely courteous this time though.
I was sent out with a master mechanic, first with me driving trying to get the transmission to misbehave then with him driving. The gentleman was extremely generous with his time. He had me drive all the way to the particular stretch of one road where the problem occurs most frequently. In all, I drove seven miles and he eleven for a total eighteen mile test drive. Far beyond normal, reasonable expectation.
Darned transmission did not so much as hiccup despite both my and his best efforts to cause the torque converter to stutter and flare.
However, he noted three things:
The shift points for second to third gear and from third to fourth gear are abnormally close for what they normally are and should be in this model transmission.
Despite not stuttering during the test drive he felt it wasn’t shifting “quite right”.
He said my description of what has been happening intermittently and the partial pattern I have noted is exactly diagnostic of the torque converter problem. He appreciated that I did not prattle at him but let him listen to the engine and transmission as well as feel what it was doing.
He said he believed the torque converter is faulty and should be repaired despite not actually duplicating the stutter/flare during the test drive.
Upon arrival back at the shop, the mechanic bypassed Junior and directly hunted down the service manager. I could see him apparently pleading an earnest case but the end result was a very frustrated looking mechanic and my being politely but briskly told by the service manager that I can bring the car back when it misbehaves such it can be duplicated, handed yet another business card and bid good day.
Interesting side note:
I did mention to the mechanic that as a low mileage driver I keep to the severe maintenance schedule but the car manual does not specify what that is for the transmission. He said Toyota claims this tranny never needs maintenance for its lifetime but the dealership has begun recommending tranny service at 60,000 miles because they are seeing tranny failures with dark trans fluid by then. He has already worked on two of them this week. So I asked if the same tranny is in the six-cylinder models. Some have the same and some a slightly different one that is having the same problems.
Sigh.
So, I figure I am left with several options:
Keep driving until the problem gets bad enough to be constant.
Try switching to a different, more distant dealer but there is still the issue of whether or not a reasonable test drive will happen to duplicate the problem.
Reconsider my choice of this car.
Oh yes, one other detail from today. Nothing was written up about all this and I did not get any paperwork whatsover to prove I was there. All I got was the hubcap and a very, very generous amount of the mechanic’s time and consideration for which I sincerely thanked him.
I have some thinking to do.
Marnet
…still reading, still learning…
So, at least you got a hubcap and some eye-contact avoiding !!
I am not surprised that they are not going to fix it unless they are really forced to. I will keep driving until it gets worse. Then give the other dealer a shot. Albeit, I am sure they all go through the same crash courses.
We were recently shopping for a replacement for out 05 Camry so my wife and teenage driver could be safer (I get to drive the 05 now again!). We took the Gen 7 Camry off our list after the test drive. Part of it was my research and finding out the TC issues. I wanted to keep the cost low, and the 2015 even though nice was out of my range, esp since I was sure my teenage driver would want something to drive with less stress. We looked at a few 2012 CPO Accords, but they had no bluetooth and also were noisy, the headlights stay on without any warnings if you forget and a few other primitive cost cuttings. So we settled on a 2013 CPO Sonata with 20K miles. It drives well for now but will see if it will go to 150K miles with no major repairs. At least it is in the color that my wife likes and what could be more important!
I would not ditch your Camry yet, I think it would be a fine car in the long run.
OP writes …
Nothing was written up about all this and I did not get any paperwork whatsover to prove I was there.
Suggest to write up what happened, you can just copy what you wrote above with some minor edits removing editorial content, and make a copy for yourself and mail a copy to the service manager at the dealership. Then you’ll both have a record. By doing this, if the service manager disagrees with your summary, it then becomes his burden to reply to your letter.
OP. Other than writing the letter, probably best at this point to wait until you can reliably get the problem to repeat. The other alternative is to see if the dealership will allow a mechanic or staff member to drive your car as they would their personal vehicle, and they lend you one of their loaners to drive. Eventually the problem will manifest itself to the staff member who can then advocate on your behalf that the car is actually misbehaving.
@Marnet You should keep pushing this issue and demand a written repair order copy. Any car that enters a shop should have a RO on record.
I agree with GeorgeinSanJose about sending them a letter and send it certified.
It’s also not a bad idea to hit a few other dealers up without saying anything about what was done, or not done, by this bunch. Make sure there is a repair order and you receive a copy.
What you related about the discussion between the mechanic and service manager is all too common. It’s also why 95% of service managers and service writers should be marched off the end of a long pier while in shackles and with sash weights attached…
Well, I think my next steps include:
Return and secure a printout of today’s work order. I had to sign one when I arrived so they owe me a copy of the end of appointment printout. If I do not get one and/or it does fully document today’s test drive, I will craft a business letter with my own documentation and hand deliver it.
Call corporate cust svc back to get more information on the torque converter problem.
Do online research.
The Camry is a nice car. This is the only real problem it has had. It is solvable with time, patience and persistence.
I am interested to dig for further info regarding any pattern of early failures of this model transmission. The mechanic’s comments caught my attention but I wish to find cooberating verification.
I am trying to be careful not to assume motives, attitudes, opinions, etc. of the people I have dealt with so far. I recognize mine is not the only perspective and that I am as prone as anyone to view interactions with subjective emotions.
I also realize I did not overhear the discussion between the mechanic and service manager. All I factually know is the mechanic said he believes the torque converter in my car has the known problem, the shift points are off, that it should be repaired, the stuttering/slipping problem did not duplicate on today’s test drive, and that he would speak to the mgr about securing repair. After he spoke to the mgr he remained silent and the mgr was the one who spoke to me to say no repair at his time. The rest is my interpretation, right or wrong, based on my observation from a distance of the mechanic’s body language. Realistically, I recognize I may be in notable error of what actually transpired although I don’t think so.
Additionally , given I was traded off between two service writers, neither of whom was the one I had the appointment to deal specifically with, it is possible the omission of my receiving a repair order final printout may have been an oversight. I did have to retrieve my key myself as it had been left on a desk not in use with no regard for keeping the key secure.
I do not miss the myriad of problems with the Impala but do miss doing business with that Chevy dealership’s service department. Quite a difference between the two.
I guess I feel like I am caught bouncing around inside a Toyota service pinball machine.
You all must be as tired of reading my tale of woe as I am dealing with and discussing it. I suppose I am documenting In too great detail on here. Please feel free to tune out reading this endless epistle. I shall be delighted when I can end it.
Sorry to have ranted. I am tired and working to sort out some problems with my house and also with a beloved pet that make the car a minor side issue.
I’ll re-read all your suggestions In daylight after a good sleep.
I never get tired of hearing about any problems although I hate to see you having to post because of them.
I’ve also been in a few situations involving the mechanic/customer/service manager and it can be frustrating. The customer has a problem, the mechanic thinks there’s a problem, and the service manager just doesn’t want to be bothered.
You are to be congratulated for being so thorough in the way you present things so if there’s any issues regarding the problem it will not be on your end.
I think I suggested this before, but will repeat. Get an account on toyotanation forum. It is a good resource. Not as good as this one though 
Like Tom and Ray said, Car Talk isn’t really about cars; it’s about people.
I like reading about your problems. I’ve learned quite a bit about how shops (especially dealerships) work and how to handle a conflict. Intermittent problems are such a pain. I really dislike their attitude towards your problem. They know perfectly well that intermittent problems are common, and you have documented your problem in sufficient detail for them to act. What if you were reporting that the brakes intermittently failed? Would they insist on replicating the problem before trying to fix it? I wish you had a great dealer nearby who would treat you right. You deserve it.
Marnet, you seem pretty car knowledgeable. I recommend you purchase the factory service manual for your car, if you haven’t already done so. Soon – hopefully not already – it will be out of print. So you need to act quickly. And assuming you plan to keep this car for some time. Having the FSM to reference while discussing options with a shop about some issue or another with the car can save the owner many hours of frustration.
Toyota corporate and I will be having a stern discussion tomorrow.
Problems are now so frequent and consistent I won’t accept being told they can’t be duplicated.
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Going from full stop at traffic light to accelerating uphill, especially when kicking it on a highway entrance ramp, rpms redline at ~6,000 before it shifts from first to second and again to third.
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Through all gears, at all speeds, in all conditions, when each shift point is reached, whether shifting up during acceleration or downshifting upon deceleration, the car shudders like driving over a log road.
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At each shift point, when the shift happens speed drops. It’s like suddenly hitting a stiff headwind. Just to maintain speed I have to give it more gas just because a new gear was reached.
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Most of the time, when I turn on the car it shudders hard. Smooth engine starts are becoming rare.
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The transmission has started hunting gears even when maintaining even speed on level road.
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It keeps dropping down a gear frequently, not wanting to maintain speed. It’s like driving through molasses.
Corporate customer service and I will have a long discussion tomorrow morning!
Car is now 14 months old with ~10,700 miles.
Hells bells, wish I’d kept the hanger queen Impala.
8 Pages, T-SB-0034-14 (April 30, 2014) 2012-2014 Camry Torque Converter Flex Lock-Up Shudder
7 Pages, (Limited Service Campaign) (LSC) E03 Certain (795,000 cars) Model Year 2012-2014 Camry Vehicles Software Update For U760E Torque Converter Shudder
7 Pages, Warranty Enhancement Program ZE5 Certain 2012-2014 Camry Vehicles Extension Of Warranty Coverage For U760E Torque Converter Coverage
Is this your trans? Was any of this done?
CSA
@Marnet
Do You Get The High-Pitched Whining Noise At Steady Speeds Between 40 & &0 MPH?
That’s another 2012-2014 Camry bulletin.
CSA