Timing Belt replacement issues!

General Discussion
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21

Yikes!

Well here’s the latest, after the mechanic apparently looked further into my car’s issue. He said that a bolt snapped- probably from a pot hole hit or something -which then made the belt snap and valves bend on the engine and the engine is indeed shot.

This whole thing seems so sketchy to me at this point I don’t even know what to do!

Firstly, if this bolt did snap- does it matter if it’s a new one that they put in? What if they put in cheaper parts or something? Or what if they didn’t install properly? How can I possibly figure this out?

Secondly, is this a chicken or the egg situation? Is it possible that the tensioner and belt broke and this made this infamous bolt snap, etc…?

I was thinking to take the car somewhere else for a second opinion or to see if I can get an inspector from my insurance company to visit the shop with me.

At this point I want to see it all for myself. I want to see the original timing belt kit parts, the bolts, the valves, the whole thing.

He said he put in a whole new timing belt kit (that cost him $250) and that he had to do that to see if the engine was damaged (I told him how many mechanics said that he should be able to tell if there was engine damage without replacing parts and he insisted he couldn’t! Seems to be one should be able to see a bent valve, no?).

What do I do?? How do I proceed here?

(And thanks @“common sense answer” I will definitely look at that site!!)

22

You Can’t Hit A Pot Hole And Damage The Engine Without Evidence Of External Engine Damage Where There Was Actual Physical Contact Or A Point Of Impact.

"Is it possible that the tensioner and belt broke and this made this infamous bolt snap, etc…? "
Yes.

"Firstly, if this bolt did snap- does it matter if it’s a new one that they put in? What if they put in cheaper parts or something? Or what if they didn’t install properly?"
These are possibilities.

"Seems to be one should be able to see a bent valve, no?"
No. The valves are inside the engine and although you could get access to see the tops of the valves, you wouldn’t be able to ascertain whether they’re bent or not.

OK4450 is a very experienced professional mechanic and he said that this “mechanic” should not put new parts in until he determined that the engine was not damaged.

CSA

23

Thanks, @“common sense answer” ! I sure wish I could take my car to @ok4450 !!!

24

As For What You Should Do Next… I Will Defer To One Of The Many Pro Mechanics That Frequent This Forum. You Will Get Better Advice.

So, did the mechanic basically deny any responsibility for what happened?

CSA

25

I think this mechanic has lousy work habits, his competency and honesty are seriously in doubt

I know you should always give “the mechanic” first crack at fixing his mistake . . . and that’s what it appears to be, in my opinion . . . but hasn’t he already proven that he can’t handle it, and possibly can’t/won’t tell the truth as to why this situation came to be, in the first place . . . ?!

Right now, it sounds like the head(s) will need to be removed, and some valves and maybe some guides replaced

I’m not a Subaru guy, but I kind of doubt the valves busted clean through the pistons. I’m guessing the cams, crank, piston and cylinders are just fine

New valves, guides, a PROPER timing belt kit, with ALL the bells and whistles, and the mechanic should eat the cost.

A pothole had absolutely nothing to do with this failure

The mechanic knows he himself is to blame

And he’s telling this BS story, because he hopes OP will buy it

As to how to get the mechanic to do the right thing and make OP whole, so to speak, I don’t know

:flushed:

26

@“common sense answer” yeah- total denial of responsibility. I’m going to take your suggestion and find out about mediation through NYS DMV.

@db4690 thank your for your input! I didn’t really have reason to mistrust him until this last go around. I brought the car back to him when it didn’t start because he new the history of repairs and I thought that if something faulty happened with his repairs, he would take responsibility and take care of it. I feel like such a schmuck! :frowning:

27

October
I just pulled out my bill from the original repair in October and guess what… $150 charge for “Timing Belt Tensioner”! The plot thickens. He said, “that’s the belt tensioner, not the hydraulic tensioner”… malarky, right?

Recently
He said, “it’s the tensioner, totally rotted through, it hasn’t been touched in years”.

More Recently
He said that a bolt snapped- probably from a pot hole hit or something -which then made the belt snap and valves bend on the engine and the engine is indeed shot.

Wow. I won a car repair case in small claims court, once, and I had nowhere near this kind of story to tell.

CSA

28

I supposed the gloves need to come off now. That mechanic is a:
A. Crook of the highest order.
B. A totally incompetent BS artist.
C. All of the above.

OP, none of this is your fault in any way, shape, or form This guy did a lousy job, it’s come back to bite him, and he’s apparently determined to pass the buck by laying on the BS. What a charlatan.

The pothole story is about as embarassingly ludicrous as it gets. That guy needs to be run out of town after his tools are dumped in the river.

What would I do if in your shoes? I’d get that car to someone with a clue who can do the repairs properly and which will now likely entail a pair of cylinder heads along with a proper timing belt job.
Next step would be to sue this guy in small claims court for those costs and make sure any shop involved in this sorts out your prior repair order copies and provides a statement.

The great odds are this guy does not want to appear in court, no way, no how. He may try to reach a settlement with you rather than appear so that’s what I’d bank on.

For what it’s worth, it’s difficult to assist much over the internet but quite a few years back the manual transmission of a Subaru owner on this forum was botched due to a mechanic error. I pretty well knew those guys had missed a bearing pin during assembly which in turned caused transmission mainshaft failure.
I provided some pics and tech info about the cause, the poster thanked me, and that was the last I heard of the problem; for several years.

A couple of years later the poster emailed me out of the blue and let me know that they had indeed taken that shop to court over the problem. The shop owner actually had the guts to show up and the judge promptly hammered him for the entire trans replacement costs and all costs involving bringing the suit.

Pardon the length of the post and I sincerely hope it helps. I’m sure competent mechanics read this kind of tale and feel like mimicking an ostrich by sticking their head in a hole in the ground…
:blush:

29

@jujubes
Are You Dealing With The Same Person Every Time You Make Contact? This Looks Like A Busy, Open 24 Hours, 20 Bay, Wheel & Tire Shop That Doesn’t Turn Away Engine Repair.

Are you dealing with the mechanic who worked on your car, a mechanic, a service rep, or a supervisor?

Have you spoken with the (an) owner/principal? I’d be sure to set an appointment with that individual and calmly (as possible) explain the situation in a concise, chronological order.

I just have to wonder if one hand doesn’t know what the other hand is doing.

CSA

30

@ok4450 Thank you so much!!! You are a godsend. I would not be able to navigate this without you!!

@“common sense answer” I’ve been dealing with one of the “partners” of the business. When he talks to me it’s always, “this is what my guy did on the car”, “this is what my guy said”…that’s how he back peddles and changes the story. Remember, at first it was that the tensioner was old and rotted out until I reminded him that I paid him for a new one only a few months ago, then he says “Well that’s what my guy said when you first brought it in”, etc…

I’m definitely going to get this car to a new place and I will follow your advice to the T @ok4450! Also going to get some guidance from the NYS DMV mediators as to proper procedure and all the documentation I need to have.

Oh my gosh, thank you guys SO MUCH!!!

31

I’ll try to add some condensed tidbits.
A timing belt kit has all of the idler pulleys and tensioner pulley, belt, and water pump. Some kits do NOT include the tensioner adjuster. It sounds like the 150 dollar charge was for the adjuster and the other was for the kit itself.

The bolts holding all of this are reused with the new kit. There is no reason to replace them. If an idler or tensioner bolt broke this means that:
Someone overtightened those bolts. (Odds are whoever done it grunted them down instead of using a torque wrench.)
Someone left a bolt loose which can also snap them off.
The belt was too tight.
A new idler or tensioner pulley failed. (almost zero chance of this)
A tensioner adjuster seized which in turn removes what could be called a “cushion effect” on the belt which can lead to a bolt breaking and/or the belt.
They allegedly replaced this tensioner adjuster so…

I realize I’m being pretty crass here but based on the bogus “can’t tell what’s wrong unless…” and the laughable pothole theory I might suggest the guy get into another line of work; say panhandling at the intersection near the mall or dumpster diving for valuables…

You might keep us in the loop on this debacle. What a horror story… :frowning:

32

I began the day trying to figure out where I was going to go for a second opinion and found a place called Mitchell’s Auto Repair. He popped up in Car Talk’s listings with extensive, thorough and good reviews (I know, this is how I ended up with the first guy, though on Yelp).

I gave him a call and explained the situation and he basically reiterated everything you have been saying to me, @ok4450 and @“common sense answer”. Then he said, as much as he’d love to do the work on it, the other guy should really take care of it and that I should go back, be aggressive and push him to do the right thing. Then he said that if I wanted to stop by his place on the way, he would show me the parts and how they all fit together so that I would know what to look for when I went to original shop! I was kind of amazed by this and enthusiastically accepted his offer since his place isn’t too far from the other. My boyfriend and I went to his shop and he showed us the different kinds of engines my car could possibly have and what they look like, in a book. Then he showed me actual pullies and a tensioner and how they look and sound in good shape and bad. He also showed me the tensioner casing and how it’s aluminum and that if a screw is overtorqued it can strip the aluminum, etc… He was a wealth of information with nothing to gain but good Samaratinship! He advised me as to how to speak with the other guys, to be firm and aggressive and to rest assured that they were in the wrong. (Oh! He also corroborated with you guys that the pothole theory is total BS!)

So then we set off to Alex’s (the bad guys!). I got there and my car was parked on the street out front. All the bits and pieces he had pulled out where tossed in the back of my car, along with anti-freeze spilling out all over my car’s interior. I was shocked! I lifted the radiator and all this anti freeze poured out of it. His reply? “We drained it but it doesn’t always drain out, that’s why we put papers underneath it”. By papers I think he was referring to random flyers and torn of pieces of paper back that were doing a very inferior job of soaking up the anti freeze. I just couldn’t believe it. My boyfriend quickly stopped it up with the paper towel I keep in the back. (why they couldn’t have done that is beyond me. The message: “we really don’t give a sh*@ about you or your car.”)

Then he shows me the broken bolt, which is indeed the bolt to the tensioner. Armed with information, I said that the pothole theory is BS and that the only way the bolt could have broken was if it was over torqued or too loose. He says there’s no way “his guys” overtorqued it, that they do these jobs all the time, they are pros they use a proper torquing wrench, that his shop is in no way at fault and chalks it up to it being an “old car”, shrug, shrug, shrug. (Of course when I brought it in for the first time and asked if the repairs I needed were worth it, he said it was a good solid car, blah, blah, blah) I say, “Okay, well…then I guess I’m taking you to court.” His attitude was just “do what you gotta do”. Totally unapologetic (and totally unapologetic about the antifreeze all over my car’s rear interior). His whole attitude was just like, “hey it happens”.

SO, I called Mitchell and told him what happened and asked if I could bring it to him for an assessment/second opinion and, of course, pay him for his time. We call the tow truck and bring it to him (a mere six blocks away!!). We bring it to him, he looks at everything (and advises me to take a picture of the antifreeze spilled all over, which I did!).

Assessment:

  1. The cross section of the bolt is totally even in color and texture indicating that the bolt itself was good.
  2. While the aluminum casing threads are not stripped, the bolt had to have been overtorqued.
  3. The pullies were never replaced and at least one of them is noisy and should have been replaced. The other is at least still smooth (so now I really want to know how only a timing belt, water pump, cam shaft seal and crank shaft seal kit with no pullies cost me $500)
  4. The valves on one side of the engine are most likely definitely damaged, but possibly still okay on the other side.
  5. It would be about a $2,000 repair or over.
  6. I have a case.

He also said he would park my car at the end of alternate side parking on a Tuesday side tomorrow so I would have some time to think about what I want to do. He said that with all the money I already paid on the maintenance repairs in the fall ($2400) to then spend another $2000+ on the engine repair might not be warranted by such an old car and that even if I junked it, I should still be able to sue the other mechanic to recoup all the money I gave him, but that I should take some time to think about it and he said he would write an assessment that I could use in small claims court.

When I asked how I could repay him…? He brushed it off and then made a joke about liking cookies. Well, Mitchell is in for quite a few batches, I can tell you that!

I’ll be heading to small claims court tomorrow and should have a court date within a few weeks! Meanwhile, I’m stashing the bolt away in a safe place and I’ve got lots of good pictures of the interior.

Eesh, what a day.

33

This “Alex” and his cronies really sound like they are lying POS hacks who deserve to be punished for their wicked ways . . . !

They are not only giving themselves a bad name, but the repair business in general

:rage:

For what it’s worth . . . yelp reviews are worthless. Here’s a few reasons why. Business owners must pay yelp a fee, so that the positive reviews appear prominently, while the bad reviews are hidden

yelp also is open to bribes from business owners. The business owner bribes yelp, who gives them phone numbers and addresses of people who left bad reviews. The business owner then contacts them, threatens physical violence, and the review is changed to positive, or deleted

:anguished:

The best recommendations should be from family, friends, neighbors, people from church, etc.

34

Thank you for the update and I will say unequivocally that the guy who botched this job is a total loser who should be run out of town on a rail. That would be after dumping all of his tools in the river per my prior comment.
If this wasn’t a family friendly forum I’d probably peel the paint off the walls with what I really think of him but in the name of tact it has to be kept toned down a bit.

I would not let this guy slide one inch. File with the consumer protection people at the AG’s office also and take him to court. Sic OSHA, the EPA, and the DEQ on him. Odds are something is going on there as there are a ton of regulations that can be easy to violate.
If the guy doesn’t even show up and you get the judgement you then need to enforce that judgement. That generally means placing a lien against the business and/or bank accounts.

My personal feeling is that it would be better if this weasel actually showed up. A word of advice if you go into court. Lay out a brief synopsis of your case and keep it as simple and as brief as possible to the judge. Think Cliff’s Notes…
Judges do not like to listen to long drawn out complaints or any back and forth between the plaintiff and defendant. You speak respectfully to the judge and ignore the weasel. The judge will handle him.

I mean come on; placing a radiator in the interior with a few papers under it? Utterly stupid or utterly callous; or both. Placing the radiator back where it came from never crossed his mind…
Sorry you’re having to go through this because of an incompetent, lying BS artist.

35

@db4690 I have to say, I’m coming to a similar conclusion. Part of me thought that that many good reviews was even kind of suspect!! I also read the reviews more closely and they mostly all relate to fast inspections and tire replacement. :neutral:

@ok4450 Haha!!! Thank you again for your advice! I am going to take it all. You’re so right and I’m going take some notes and pair it all down to simple bullet points so as not to overload the judge. Fortunately it’s a big enough garage that they aren’t going to shut down and relocate just to avoid a $2400 judgement. (Here’s hoping anyway!)

At least I know that my case is truly justified!! I may not get all of it back, but I’m confident I’ll get a good chunk and some satisfaction.

It will take a while to get the court date and all, but I will let you know how it goes!!

I’m really glad I found Mitchell…I only wish I had found him sooner. But at least he has restored some of my faith in humanity (along with all of you guys!)

36

Most mechanics are honest. The horribly incompetent, or downright crooked, minority tarnishes everyone in the field.

I will just add one more thing. Many times consumers rely on reviews and those should always be taken with a grain of salt.
One never knows how many of those reviews were posted by friends, relatives, inlaws, paid hacks, or the worst case scenario; someone who leaves a glowing review while not realizing their repair was shortcutted or possibly not even done. It just hasn’t come back to bite them yet.

There’s a guy who passed away here a couple of years ago whom I’ve known 40+ years. He’s a great guy and everyone (and I mean everyone including me) liked this guy. He was very successful with his shop and wrecker service and stayed swamped with work.

The problem? He cut corners right and left with no concerns about whether or not the car would roll a meter before dying and repair charges for work not done was common. From minor to major, no consumer was safe from a guy who had no internet complaints, no BBB complaints, no lawsuits, etc.

My second cousin lived in his area and took his Pontiac to him for a transmission fluid service.
He got the car back (a week later…) with balky shifting and eventually made it to me after being told his trans was dying.
The cause? The transmission pan had been left off and used to feed the shop owner’s dogs. The pan was reinstalled with Purina and errant leaves which had blown through the door. When running the leaves and dog food were being sucked up to the filter and cutting off the flow of transmission fluid.
The cousin was outraged and cursing like a sailor. A month or so later he was back to the guy again for something else.

Psychoanalysis is above my pay grade so… :smiley:

37

@ok4450. We had a horse trader in the area that would cheat everyone that came across his path. I asked a friend once how these people could get taken…then just go right back to him. My friend said “Everybody likes a con man or there wouldn’t be con men.”. They have that personality that people can’t resist, so the people are drawn right back to him.

I’m happy for the Op, that she has found a good mechanic that can return her faith in honest people, and I’m sure he will love the cookies.

I was on a trip years ago from Wisconsin to Texas and had developed a oil leak on the front main crank seal. By the time I went through Arkansas I was stopping to add a quart every 100 miles. When I got to my destination I went to a dealer, and they were able to replace the seal the next day by noon. Then I had a U-Joint go and they got that fixed before 9am the next morning.
I know they put me ahead of other vehicles that were in line for work, and even gave me a ride to and from my Motel both times. They were so good to me, and mentioned that they didn’t want to see my vacation ruined. Both bills came in under their estimate’s and were about 1/2 of what I’d pay around home.
The next summer when I went down to visit again, I took along the Weber grill and 25# of Bratwurst, hot dogs, home made potato salad and all the fixins. I called ahead and, explained myself to the service manager and had them invite anyone who may have the day off.
I got down there at 10am and had everything set up by 11am. They even brought in some extra picnic tables. They ate all but a couple of the hot dogs and were very appreciative of my efforts.

Best part was that I felt that I had paid them back for going so far out of there way to help a traveler.

Yosemite

38

@Yosemite, I don’t know what to say about the grilliing except Wow and how considerate of you. Those guys will remember you forever.

39

Thank You for the compliment @ok4450 I sure did have fun doing that and it was a blast seeing all the people there enjoying it all.

Well, both times I came in just as all the mechanic’s were leaving…or at least washing up.
Both instances were three days apart and for the U-Joint the mechanic said that he’d come in early to get me back on the road.

And I was a little Leary about going to a dealer. I figured they’d charge me more and tack on a little more because I was in such need. But I figured that I’d have Ford to complain to if I was took advantage of.
I didn’t know anyone to ask for recommendations for inde shops and then was afraid I’d get Billy Bob and Rufis …the blind twins for mechanic’s.

Yosemite

40

That was very nice of you. If I had trouble on the road other than a tire or something, I’d head to the dealer without hesitation.