I don’t see where emissions from a coal fired plant is hurting anything here. My electricity comes from a coal fired plant about 35 miles away that has been up and running for close to 40 years.
This plant is located on the banks of an 8000 or so acre lake that is considered pristine and the entire surrounding area is all part of a state wildlife preserve where hunting, fishing, boating, and so on is allowed. There is even a nice beach area for swimming and adjacent park/playground area for cookouts and a place for kids to play.
When it first went in many years ago some smoke could be seen from the stacks but that was cleaned up a long time ago and one never sees anything now. The same is true of a carbon black plant about 10 miles away from me. This place used to be nasty (still is on site) with large flames at night and black soot settling 2 miles away but about 15 years ago the stacks at that facility were cleaned up and flames are not seen anymore and the bottom of the town swimming pool does not become black anymore.
I don’t doubt what you’re saying; just that the lake near the plant here is fine and I’ve been there a number of times for cookouts, fishing, and what have you. It’s considered a great lake for fishing (especially for striped bass) and the soil and water are tested regularly for problems. In fact, one of the better areas for fishing is right near the plant where the warm water from the cooling towers is discharged although the power company tries to limit access to that area for safety reasons.
The U.S. IMPORTS 12-13 million barrels of crude oil a day. That’s more than any one country has produced in a day in the entire 100+ year history of the petroleum age. These projections are based in part on reduced consumption and increased efficiency.
Oil independence? It hasn’t existed in this country since the 1940’s, when we had less than half the population, and 1/6 as many cars on the road. I’ll believe it when I see it.
I don't see where emissions from a coal fired plant is hurting anything here.
It’s probably NOT hurting anything THERE…But it sure is hurting things in the North East.
Here’s just ONE of the THOUSANDS of links I found…
If there’s a way of reducing the pollution generated from Coal plants…Fine…But there are still problems. We go camping at least once a year in the Adirondacks near Round Lake. Most of the lakes in that area are completely dead. Nothing lives. And hundreds of studies pointed to one source and one source ONLY…Coal plants from the Mid West.
And then there’s the problem with mining coal…But that’s another debate.
Our generation will probably have enough fossil fuels…And probably even our grand kids. But not so sure about their grand kids. Then what???
Mike; the acid rain problem was addressed a number of years ago. Using scrubbers completely takes out the acidic components and produces gypsum wall board in the process. The Antilope Valley plant of Basin Electric is a good example. Coal (untreated) will likely be gradually phased out in North America because it generates the most carbon per KWHr.
I agree with other posters that wind power is problematic for a number of reasons, mostly that it is INTERMITTENT and needs large power plants as backup, making it even more expensive. Spain, California, and Ontario, Canada are handing out such large subsidies that they will end up with extremely expensive power which will scare away industry. Both Spain and Germany are re-examining these huge subsidies. When you can generate power the conventional way for 15 cents per KWHr and you hand out a subsidy Feed-in Rate of up to 58 cents, you can see the economic folly of blindly listening to Al Gore. Denmark generates the most power from wind (and has no other conventional domestic energy sources) and has extremely expensive power.
Solar, on the other hand is on a continuous decreasing cost curve, and its enirely possible that within our lifetime, houses could be built with solar walls and roofs that generate excess electric energy that could be fed back into asmart grid`. You would need some expensive converters in your basement and an enlightened power supply company.
In the mean time we will have to make use of our abundant cheap natural gas to repower coal plants as they age to replacement. Nuclear plants make sense on paper, but the huge capital costs and the end-of-life disposal problems ensure that growth will be limited.
“I don’t see where emissions from a coal fired plant is hurting anything here. My electricity comes from a coal fired plant about 35 miles away that has been up and running for close to 40 years.”
It doesn’t happen in your back yard. Emissions in Oklahoma would cause acid rain in Arkansas, Indiana, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, or Kentucky. The acid rain in the Northeastern US comes from Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. They got rid of their emissions problems by building taller smoke stacks. That just moved the pollutants farther east.
And yes, the problem has been reduced by scrubbers, but not completely eliminated.
Mike; the acid rain problem was addressed a number of years ago.
Unfortunately acid rain is still happening. So2 has been reduced…but NOT completely eliminated. SOME lakes are now starting to come back But many will take decades. And the saturation of high ph in the soil is still a problem.
Is coal cleaner then it was 10 years ago…YES…is it as clean as other sources like Natural Gas…NOT EVEN CLOSE.
I’ll happlily support oil/gas substitutes that actually solve problems economically. So far that’s not happened. Corn-based ethanol is the biggest example of good intentions gone horribly wrong. Latest news: the EPA has refused to temporarily reduce the required volume of ethanol to help out livestock farmers during this drought. The law also fails to account for the reduced gasoline consumption over the last several years, the ethanol target is not a %, it’s a fixed volume requirement. Stupid.
Another example was the biodiesel requirement passed by the Europeans. Solution? Cut down thousands of acres of Indonesian rain forest to plant oil palms. Double stupid.
Solar has lots of promise, CNG/LNG is just about here now.
Mike is right in his assessment. Power production should be localized and specialized. The large power producers should be relegated to areas with few renewable resources. Look at the population distribution. There s no reason tidal power could not eventually produce power for more then half the population of the US. That leaves the rest to share in wind and solar which is in abundance for a third to half of what is left.
Just give the power and the purse string to the idealists …We’ll fake the rest.
Yes Mike,case in point there is a 500KV transmission line about .5 mile from here on a foggy night it will light up a flourescent tube underneath it,gotta be some waste there-Kevin
My point about wind power after watching the construction is that a mind-boggling amount of fossil fuel and fossil fuel generated energy is being used to construct these farms and to maintain them after the fact. It would take the oil output of a small OPEC member to cover the fuel bases on this.
Regarding my earlier comment about widespread public support and news surfacing yesterday about liens being filed against every iota of this project, it appears that every single land owner now has a lien against them too. A lien prevents a land owner from disposing of the land in any way, prevents borrowing money against it, and so on. That will put a real crimp on ag loans and land leasing for hunting, the growing of crops, and the running of livestock. There are going to be some real pxxxxx off land owners; and especially if things develop where those yearly lease payments are not forthcoming.
I might add that the construction company building this farm is the main contractor in the U.S. for this type of work and questions arise as to whether other projects are going through the same.
They’re also building another farm about 20 miles north of the one where I live.
Regarding my earlier comment about the coal fired electric plant at Sooner Lake which is not too far from where I live.
I might also add that the Tulsa Audobon Society highly recommends this area and gives the site their blessing.
Bottom line; this place is as clean as a surgical room at the hospital, coal fired plant or not.
Regarding my earlier comment about the coal fired electric plant at Sooner Lake which is not too far from where I live.
As stated…Coal plants do most harm in form of Acid rain hundreds of miles away. Acid rain is STILL occurring here in the North East. Not the rate it did 10 years ago…but it’s still happening. And it has an accumulative effect. While the SO2 is reduced…when it rains it gets in the soil and accumulates.
Coal not clean pure and simple,look at the mess London used to have,Still coal has its place,but conservation and effiecency will help more then anything-most everybody likes to be warm-Kevin
Texases…the problem with tidal power is it’s large scale environment needs big financial commitment to even study. It requires a bigger commitment from the govt. for both wave and tidal power. Environmental problems to fish, I feel can be solved or minimized. The sea is the biggest energy collection center and should be the biggest attraction as a renewable. Just the sea currents hold enough energy to make it worthwhile.
@dagosa - not argument there, certainly worth studying. As are a number of other areas. But we need to be careful to fully understand the difference between ‘potential’ and ‘sure thing’. Many billions have been spent on bad, even damaging, ideas, and ignoring or demonizing other sources.
For example, I just saw a preview for a new anti-natural gas major Hollywood movie. Big stars, big budget. Only thing missing? ANY ACTUAL FACTS. They showed bad things happening that have NEVER HAPPENED ANYWHERE. This will only serve to terrify people. And make them money. Guess what: some of the movie funding come from the UAE, who would be damaged if US oil imports drop…
Becoming as critical as I have this year over wind power I might mention something I saw this evening in regards to the turbines going up here. The farm is about 50% complete with the northern string (100 units give or take) apparently operational over the past week or so.
One of the turbines in the herd was spinning away and another was also spinning, just not as fast.
Given that the wind speed over the last 36 or so hours has been zero or close to it that begs the question of what’s making those blades rotate?
(Keep in mind those turbines are induction generators which require power to be functional; just like a car alternator.)
I like the UAE probaly more then the rest of the MidEast,but they are spending themselves into oblivion,I suppose when the oil runs out,they will have something left besides Palaces and private fortunes(Folks this world as we know it is headed down the tubes,get ready)-Kevin
@kmccune If you read the doomsday literature of the last 200 or so years, starting with Malthus (overpopulation & starvation in the 1700s), the world as been going to hell in a handbasket for that long!!
This year I was in Wales, once the world’s largest exporter of coal and slate. That same port (Cardiff) is now IMPORTING coal from Virginia to power a local coal fired power station. The living standard in Wales has actually risen since that time and the population’s health is better. Wales has adapted itself since Margaret Thatcher closed the coal mines and has diversified itself.
With respect to the Middle East, when the oil runs out, if the population has not educated itself and diversified the economy, it will be back to camels! Egypt once was the richest country in the Middle East and the “breadbasket” of the region. The only Egyptian products I own are underwear and socks made of locally grown cotton and bought a Marks & Spencer in London.
The way things have always worked, with a resource becoming scarcer, the price goes up and substitutes become more attractive. Ireland still has lots of peat, but almost nobody burns it anymore because it is a very dirty and expensive (per calorie) fuel. Imported oil and natural gas have replaced it. Similarly, coal is hardly used anymore as a domestic heating fuel in Britain, and the buildings in London have all been sandblasted to get rid of that soot. Before you go to England rent the movie Mary Poppins, and then try to locate a “chimney sweep” in London.
At this stage, the world has actually more gas than oil, but it has very large reserves of each.
I was born and raised in a country that once had 20,000 windmills that did many things; grind grain, power textile mills, pump water, etc. Now it has only 1000 of the old style left, preserved mostly for the tourists. They now get their power from natural gas and diesel fuel; three diesel engines now do the work of 15 picturesque windmills to pump out the water. There a a umber of new style windmills to add to power generation, but they never amount to more than 5% of total demand.
I think you misunder stood my post Docnick,I believe when the majority of the world sort of catches up to the West (standard of living wise) there will be a downward shift in the affordable luxuries.This World simply cannot give 7 Billion people the standard of living the US has,sure things have got better in the Isles,but there seems to be a lot of unemployment there also.I happen to think things are pretty good for the civilized countries right now-but “Gehenna” isnt hard to find in Africa and the rest of the third world ,so I’m not turning Pollyannish right yet.I lived too long in LBJ’s Applachia-Kevin