You have to read the OVERALL reliability rating at CR… a car may rate “exellent” for the electrical system, but, the overall quality is bad.
But those owners will be more vocal about problems than they would if it’s driving good. Also, if you paid $90k for that shiny new S class, you’re more likely to be picky about all those squeaks and rattles than someone who bought an Accent or Yaris(unless your name is otterhere 
).
Nothing you said is persuasive. You gave samples of one or two, and never took time into account. Your Dad owned 7 Cadillacs over a few decades, not since 2005 or so when Cadillac reliability improved dramatically.
JD Power also surveys owners. Where else do they get information from?
“You have to read the OVERALL reliability rating at CR… a car may rate “exellent” for the electrical system, but, the overall quality is bad.”
Re-read the post. You missed the part about all the red dot thingies. What hidden ratings does CR use if an average of the major subsystems aren’t enough to rate a car?
Why do you keep bringing Toyota up? My posts never said that Toyota, or more specifically Lexus, are unreliable cars. But Jaguar has improved dramatically. Am I surprised? Of course! But that doesn’t make it any less true. And I don’t buy that stuff about selling ratings to the highest bidder. If someone can prove it, then do so. Otherwise those claims are just myth.
If I were to buy a luxury sedan, I think I would buy a Jaguar. I really like the lines of the Jaguar as compared to the BMW, Lexus, Mercedes,etc. If I had the money for a luxury car, I wouldn’t be concerned about high upkeep costs, but the good reliablilty would be a definite plus.
Why did I post this information, and why did I do it in such an inflamitory way?
It’s a lot of fun to poke conventional wisdom in the eye. Not you guys, just conventional wisdom. We all just know something is true, yet at some time it might not be so true anymore. That seems to be the case with Jaguar. Here’s the press release:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009043
Page to the bottom and you will see a graph of the incidents per 100 cars for all the brands tested. Some surprises (to me) that are above average:
Audi and Chrysler
Some below average surprises:
Mazda, Scion and VW. Someone has to be below average, but what really surprises me is that they are at the very bottom with Land Rover, Saab, Isuzu and Suzuki.
I find this is interesting data. They have done it every year since 2003, so cars from 1999 through 2005 have been rated now; all ratings are 3 years after the model year. I hope that you had as much fun as I did. It’s been fun poking at conventional wisdom, and I hope that you can share a smile at our (mine, too) disbelief that Jaguar could ever produce the most reliable vehicles under any circustances. Shows what we know, huh?
It just shows where most of their profits come from…Mazda/Scion and VW are not keeping up payments. JD Power IMO is a shill company, paid to print whatever companies wish, no better, no worse than Car and Driver, Motor Trend or any other publication paid to walk the line between integrity and profit. Integrity often comes in second with these publications.
Much of the JDP info is–at best–counterintuitive.
How would one explain a defect rating for Toyota of 129 per 100 vehicles, and a rating for Scion vehicles (which are mechanically identical to certain Toyota models) of 222? If we are to believe these ratings, Scions have almost twice the defect rate of Toyotas. I’m sorry, but there is something very much wrong with those statistics.
Almost as bizarre is the rating for Isuzu of 234 defects per 100 vehicles, vs Chevrolet’s rating of 185 defects. Since the only “Isuzu” products sold in this country last year were rebadged Chevy trucks and SUVs that came off of Chevrolet assembly lines, this skewed statistic is–essentially statistically impossible.
Once again, you missed the model year. 3rd year dependability ratings have to be on 2005 or 2006 cars; the 2009 model year isn’t even over yet. During 2005, Isuzu only sold the Ascender; almost identical to the TrailBlazer and Envoy. But Chevy sold 27 models. I guess the other 26 models were better than the Ascender/TrailBlazer/Envoy.
As for the difference between the Scion (I’m shocked, too, remember?) and Toyota, most Toyotas sold in the USA are built in North America, while all Scions are built in Japan.
So, there are significant differences that you guys did not account for.
In science, we have what is called “empirical evidence”-- that is, we have a theory, we test the theory, and if the evidence indicates truth, then we infer that our theory is true… so… yes, my few examples don’t “prove” anything… perhaps THOUSANDS of examples don’t prove anything… because, if you WANT to believe the earth is flat, or that Obama was born in Africa, then no amount of proof will convince you… the story of “doubting Thomas” comes to mind.
No “hidden” ratings… no conspiracy… I suggest YOU contact the editor of CR with your concerns… I personally trust CR, because they are pro-consumer, and have no political agenda… their only interest is protecting the consumer… can Jaguar-- or ANY carmaker-- say the same?
All this reminds me of the studies that “proved” there were WMD’s in Iraq… of course, since the SOURCE of the info was unreliable, the intelligence was also bad. CR is an impartial source, with no industry ties. J.D. Powers is paid by car companies. Of course, you can believe either source… but skepticism goes a long way, especially when considering the car industry… an industry which opposed seat belts, air bags, and any safety device which cut into their bottom-line (remember the “exploding Pinto”? A $50 safety shield, left off the gas tank, so Ford could make extra profits?)
JD Power’s primary business ia selling the rights to use its awards for advertising purposes. That, IMHO, is a clear conflict of interest.
So, the award goes to the one that pays the most? I can’t see how it works in this case. Ford owned Jaguar at the time these cars were produced. Who would have paid the king’s ransom to cook the books? Maybe Tata did it!
Of course, Land Rover is as bad as it ever was. Maybe Tata didn’t pay enough!
We’ve all be talking qualitatively and haven;t ponied up numbers. Here’s a few:
Since the 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), the average number of issues per 100 cars dropped from 237 to 170 - almost 30%! It’s not that the usual list of suspects got a lot better, but that many other brands improved dramatically. They saw the loyal following that Toyota, Honda, and Lexus developed, and figured they wanted to join that crowd.
Lexus got a tiny bit better; it’s hard to get a lot better when you are the best. Toyota, Buick, and especially Jaguar made huge improvements. Mazda got a little better and Scion stayed the same. Here are the results by model year from 2002 through 2006. Just add 3 years to get the reporting year:
average lexus toyota buick jaguar mazda scion
2002 237 139 194 163 268 252 NA
2003 227 136 179 153 210 243 NA
2004 216 145 178 145 197 289 220
2005 206 120 159 163 178 228 243
2006 170 126 139 122 122 27 222
Mazda apparently suffers from poor results on the RX-8 and Mazda3. It was reported that dependability for the Mazda3 was never as good as the Protege. Scion hovers just above the 2004 average but didn’t get better.
If anyone wants to compare numbers, do a web search for ‘jdpower vds filtetype:pdf’ and you will get the press releases. Or I could post them if anyone is interested. It does seem like there are very few people interested in new cheese, though.
Yeah, about that. I heard that the 2005 burned out I think it was u-joints like clockwork.
another thing. If a car breaks down before it is about 7 years old now, it is a real piece of garbage. If a jag lasts 7 years with no major issues, so what. If say 90% of the jags they produce now go for 10-15 years without issues, then it is a good car. So, We shall see if JD power is correct or not in 2025 or so.
Anyone in the business of selling awards who does not find a way to give the customers awards in return for their dollars is a pretty poor business person. You’ll never hear me accuse JD Powers of being poor at their business.
IMHO there isn’t enough money in the whold world to get Land Rover an award. Perhaps if we said that they’re in a quality class all by themselves, a class apart from the rest of the industry?
“I heard that the 2005 burned out I think it was u-joints like clockwork.”
What brand of 2005 car are you talking about?
One needs to also be careful with understanding what the data represents. I’m uncomfortable interpreting its meaning without more detail on categories.
Scion, for example, has suffered with difficulties in body hardware, specifically the sliding moonroof systems and the air struts for the hatch, both on the tC. It seems these two thing systems are less robust than they should be. The tracks on the roof need to be kept clean and the aupport struts blow their seals more often then they should. I’m disinclined to compare 100 body hardware problems the same as, say, 100 failed manifold gaskets or 100 bad transmissions.
To use a phrase from the great Lee Iacocoa, if anyone feels that a Jaguar is better than a Lexus they should buy it. And I truely believe that. I believe in free choice.
I respect that you’re an active supporter of domestic brands. And published comparative surveys are legit references. It’s important, however, to maintain the context.
Personally, I like Jags. I almost bought one some years back. An XJ6 as I recall. Before Ford took them over. But I knew it would be like having another mouth to feed. Not a good choice for a man on a budget.