The illegal alien issue gives some insight into the partisan divide

General Discussion
1

The GOP wants desperately to keep the illegal aliens here in order to hold down labor costs while pumping in FICA funds. In a perfect solution the GOP could make themselves appear concerned for the hard working poor who rushed across the border and gain a significant number of votes from citizens with are strongly supportive of all things “latino.”

http://politix.topix.com/homepage/5158-rand-paul-supports-legal-status-for-undocumented-immigrants

But most certainly, they want nothing to do with granting citizenship and the right to vote to the peons. Absolutely not. It seems that a new “2nd class” citizen is in the planning. Just think what a great country we will have with Jaime Cuervo law.

2

@Rodknox
I hear you Rod. The succesful effort to make profits includes exporting labor to third world countries and continually importing third world labor here. If we are so concerned about buying American, we should be equally concerned that it means " made by Americans" or those with a pathway to be one and not just leagalizing status to continue being a second class resident with third world pay. Raise the minimum wage, make it apply to EVERY worker including those came here to work.

It sad that corporate greed has high jacked the Republican brand.

3

This is not really a black and white or repub or dem issue I don’t think. Although some would like to make it that it really is a little more complex for a lot of people. Most of us who are decendants of immigrants who came here legally and at the request of the US, see it a little strange that those who were smuggled in would gain the same status. In addition we severely restrict those from Norway, Germany, France and so on from coming here permanently and they will have no pathway to citizenship. Many of our forefathers also were sponsored by corporations and then had to work off their debt when they got here. Try to get Canadian or Mexican citizenship just by showing up-It doesn’t happen. Also look at some of the problems that have been created in states like California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas such as drugs and crime due to an influx of aliens.

On the other hand, fair minded folks have sympathy for those that have been here for years, worked hard and raised families. It doesn’t seem fair or good policy to just deport these people and break the families apart.

The democrats pandered to the group for the votes in the past. Catholics are happy to have them here and their large families to boost their membership here. Roofing, landscaping, and food companies are happy to have them for their low wages, and unions have seen them as a threat to reasonable wages same as jobs going to China. So is the answer just allow them to vote and double their pay? Don’t think so. Its a mess that was created over the past 25 years and there are no easy answers.

4

@Bing "On the other hand, fair minded folks have sympathy for those that have been here for years, worked hard and raised families. It doesn’t seem fair or good policy to just deport these people and break the families apart. "

I agree 100%. The Republican brand seems overtly disfunctional in this area but like a child, couldn’t get away with it without underlying support by a completely Co-dependent and equally disfunctional Democratic brand. Neither side is the “adult in the room” as elements in both are so concerned with reelections, actually making fair decisions about this situation and governing is the last thing on their mind.

5

Since I have always been an Independent when it comes to political matters…this partisanship divide actually affects me more than people who follow one party or the other. Usually…I voted Democratic or Republican based on the person that was running for office. One was usually strong while the other was weak. It made the decision pretty straightforward.

BTW…I never vote for anyone that runs in any of the “off brand” political parties. They are too radical in my opinion.

I just hope partisanship returns to normal shortly because it’s rapidly getting to the point where I don’t like the people than run in either of the major parties. My only choice will be to abstain from voting or start looking at voting for a radical candidate. Neither one of those choices appeal to me at all.

6

Bing posted an excellent reply, and one I agree with. I’d add that undocumented illegal immigrants access public systems without adding to the tax base, which is unfair to the rest of us.

7

The illegals have been crossing the border since Reagan’s amnesty 30 years ago and neither party has made any effort to even slow the problem. The Tea Party was a loosely connected group of various social/fiscal conservatives with many key issues and illegal aliens was an important issue for SOME, but not all. Here in Mississippi the anti-abortion and anti-gay issues were at the top, for instance. Our governor when the Tea Party groups were running hot and heavy threw a few illegals in jail and shut down a factory that employed hundreds because the HR manager had a Spanish surname and it made for good headlines. That governor was to the right of Newt but was more discreet. When a hard core Tea Party congressman brought out a bill to force illegals out of the state wealthy poultry farmers, potato farmers and large construction contractors slammed the capital and the welcome mat was rolled out for the illegals.

It is all too obvious that the Republican party has been and and continues to be in favor of keeping the border open for cheap labor and has no real concern for the cost of public services or lack of paying into the tax base. The Republican party has a scripted dog and pony show that politicians and Fox News entertains US with but it is as phony as the “cut taxes to increase revenues” tripe.

8

If we don’t thing the Dems have a hand in whatever we blame the Reps for, look at Harry Reid and his refusal to bring the important parts of a gun bill to the floor. Not enough votes , he says, to pass it. By not bringing bills pertaining to either gun legislation or immigration to the floor, you don’t force the legislators to take stand. It’s an old trick so those running for office can say anything they want without important legislative votes on their record until election time. The vast majority of citizens want legislation on both gun control and immigration yet BOTH leaders of the Senate and house play politics with each. The senate delays vote on gun legislation and the house delay vote on immigration. But, they find the time to vote on cutting Obama care 31 times and pass the Ryan ( increase the deficit budget) Why, because politics and getting elected is more important then getting the job done.

Right now there are two parties…Republican and Repulican Light. It’s was enough for me to drop any party affiliation twenty years ago…and it’s getting worse not better. They tank the filibuster rule, why ? So the geezers from both parties in the senate “elected for life fraternity” can sit on their fat asteroids and still hold things up. Both parties when in power had a chance to reverse. It…neither did.

If legislators aren’t forced to vote on issues, even if we know the outcome, we will never be able to hold them accountable.

9

I live in Mexico. I know men who have gone North, and I know men who came back. I tell them, please don’t go, it is dangerous, and they don’t want you there. They go anyway, because a year or two changes their families forever. And, so would most men in the US, if the circumstances were the same. Men do what it takes to give their families a better life, and that is what Mexican men are doing.

Traditionally, the Democrats were the party of the way they would like things to be, no matter how impossible it was. And, the Republicans were the party of the way things really are.

Now, the Republicans are the party of the way they want things to be, not the way they are.

There are an estimated 11 million illegals in the US. They are not leaving. There is no law that can be passed which will successfully force them to leave. You can deport one once in a while, but if LE goes into a neighborhood and starts brute forcing large numbers of people out, it will be like “midnight over Baghdad”.

Like with weed, most of the problems connected to illegals come about BECAUSE they are illegal. As a nearly straight ticket Republican, I view the heated resistance to finding some way to legalize those who are in the US and are going to stay in the US to be a bit childish at this point. Stupid things let in 11 million illegals, but it is time to accept the fact they are here and deal with it.

I still wish they would stay in Mexico.

Let me add that the large amounts of “Mexicans” on welfare are mostly women, who go to the US specifically to draw welfare. I personally have never known a male Mexican to get “welfare” as such. The men go to work. Those of you who live in places like LA may have a different view.

10

Interesting comment on immigration. You aren’t going to draw me into the gun debate again but I’ll just say that if the Pres would have done what he did just after the election, before the election, he never would have been elected. We were warned about his gun control and social views but some of us didn’t believe it and voted for him anyway. That wouldn’t happen now. You have to get out of the east coast area and after that, the general population does not want any more gun control or government meddling. They want less meddling, balanced budget, lower welfare spending, programs that work, not more of the same do do like we’ve had.

11

They are not all Latinos.
There are significant hurdles, education achievement is one of the hurdles.
Some immigrants have accummulated some wealth and we all know money has significant influence in getting out the vote and funding candidate’s campaigns.

12

Balance the budget is the mantra of those NOT in office. The last year of Bush’s administration, after he spent 2.2 trillion on wars, while lowering taxes, the deficit was 1.2 trillion including defense spending…which he did not…and TARP… In each of Obama’s years the deficit has dropped. A balnced budget WILL occur as the deficit has been dropping EVERY years since he took office. Look at the facts. You measure fiscal responsibility by how much you raise or lower the deficit over the PREVIOUS administration…and let’s not make things up about welfare being a problem for this administration. Obama care passed because it encouraged domestic spending and LOWERS the deficit according to economists with actual degrees in economy !

Yes, Obama has increased the total debt more then Bush because Bush came into office with a SURPLUS he managed to spend down first. OBAMA came in with a huge deficit that you must take down incrementally while stimulating the economy during a near depression…the worst since 1929… Complements of the Bush administration who cooked the books and didn’t even put war spending into the deficit. This administration at least does. It’s called ethics.

You only lower deficits by stimulating and growing the economy. Moving money overseas does not stimulate the economy. Welfare does, SS spending does, Medicare does, , Medicaid does, infra structure spending does, spending money on education does…all stimulate the economy and create good jobs. You start cutting your welfare programs, you slow the economy and encourage higher deficits…that’s why Republicans who preach fiscal conservatism and defense…have not gotten either right since Reagon turned us from the biggest loaner nation to the biggest debtor nation in the world…and Republicans keep walking that same line…Dems are now talking the same talk and have become a little dumber as well…and why I can’t fully support them either. But lets at least pretend we know a little elementary economics and not fall for the same austerity BS leaving the potential of millions to get sick and die…it never works.

Ask any businessman. Smart investments in your own business here at home, gets you out of debt ! We encourage growth by embracing the immigrants we have and encourage more of the best legally. Always have , always will. Iraq is a shadow of itself because we forced their best and brightest out of their country…we should want the best and brightest here and provide all the social safety net while they pay their taxes as potential citizens. To do anything else is not only immoral, but fiscally irresponsible.

13

I think it’s a stretch to say that the illegal immigrant issue is an insight into the divide between the dems and the repubs. I think the real divide is a phiosophical disagreement over individual rights and the rights of the states vs. the continuous expansion of the federal government.

There’s also a huge difference of opinion on whether the economy can be stimulated best by government or by leaving more of the money in the hands of the private sector. Beyond that, we’ve had long, long debates before on Dag’s assertions, so I’ll burden them no more.

As regards the immigration issue, I believe in a strong border security, but I also believe that those families who have been here for a number of years and have been honest (not gotten into trouble) and contributed to the country should be granted a ready path to citizenship.

At the same time, those who are illegelly crossing the border and sending the money home should be stopped. Those who’ve committed crimes should be imprisoned, and those who are here long past the expiration of their visas should be given one opportunity (a time period) to renew their visas, apply for citizenship, or return home.

14

Regardless of who is crossing the border and sending money to whom, the fact remains, their employers are going no where and they are the responsible ones. They are happy to send 3rd world wages anywhere. Right now the money IS" in the hands of the private sector." Look at the values in the stock market. Corporate profits have never been so high…they have all the funds NOW and are choosing to sit on their wealth. They are choosing not to stimulate our economy but instead, invest in Mexico ( and elsewhere) Our letting private sector unregulated do it’s thing doesn’t work. How many big long term infrastructure projects has private sector funded compared to public funding ?

The private sector grew in stock value steadily until the their top 1% had income equal to nearly one quarter of all the income in the US in two important years…1928 and 2007, just before two crashes. So, saying that private sector investment is the sole answer without govt. intervention just isn’t born out by the facts. They will not invest unless incentivized or taxed as long as they can make profits otherwise… That includes taking advantage of third world labor and immigrants. The private sector is amoral and is often, without regulation, incentives and govt. stimulus, part of the problem

15

Another Point Of View
My Son Obtained His Undergraduate And Graduate Degrees In Business And Economics, Finance And Banking At Northwood University. Four Days Ago, A Professor There, Timothy G. Nash, Sent A Letter To A Local Newspaer. The Midland Daily News Printed The Letter Titled “Northwood’s Nash says some markets encouraging, others not so much”

This Letter Gives A Different Prospective On Profit And It’s A View I Can Relate To More Than That Of Folks Who Keep Bashing Corporations, Profits, And “Greed.”

Begin quote:
Here is an old story with an important message. It is titled: “I’m for people, not for profit.”

Once upon a time there was a Little Red Hen who scratched about and uncovered some grains of wheat. She called her barnyard neighbors and said, “If we work together and plant this wheat we will have some fine bread to eat. Who will help me plant the wheat?”

“Not I,” said the Cow. “Not I”, said the Duck. “Not I” said the Goose. “Then I will”, said the Little Red Hen and she did.

After the wheat started growing, the ground turned dry and there was no rain in sight. “Who will help me water the wheat?” asked the Little Red Hen.

“Not I,” said the Cow. “Not I,” said the Duck. “Not I,” said the Pig. “Equal rights,” said the Goose. “Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen and she did.

The wheat grew tall and ripened into golden grain. “Who will help me reap the wheat?” asked the Little Red Hen.

“Not I,” said the Cow. “Not I,” said the Duck. “Out of my classification,” said the Pig. “It is not in my contract,” said the Goose. “Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen and she did.

When it came time to grind the flour, “Not I. said the Cow. “I’d lose my welfare benefits,” said the Pig. “I’d lose my unemployment compensation,” said the Duck.

When it came to bake the bread, “That’s overtime for me,” said the Cow. “I’m a dropout and never learned how,” said the Duck. “I’d lose my welfare benefits,” said the Pig. “If I’m the only one helping, that’s discrimination,” said the Goose.

“Then I will,” said the Little Red Hen and she did. In fact, she baked five loaves of fine bread and held them up for her neighbors to see.

“I want some,” said the Cow. “I want some” said the Duck. “I want some,” said the Pig. “I demand my share!” said the Goose.

“No,” replied the Little Red Hen. “I can rest awhile and eat the loves myself.”

“Excess profits!” cried the Cow. “Capitalistic leech!” exclaimed the Duck. “Company fink!” grunted the Pig. “I will call Michael Moore!” screamed the Goose and they hurriedly painted picket signs and marched around the Little Red Hen, singing, “We shall overcome.”

And they did. For when the Farmer came to investigate the commotion, he told the Little Red Hen, “You must not be greedy. Look at the oppressed Cow. Look at the disadvantaged Duck. Look at the underprivileged Pig. Look at the less-fortunate Goose. You are guilty of making second-class citizens of them.”

“But – but – but – I earned the bread,” said the Little Red Hen.

“Exactly,” said the wise Farmer. “That is the wonderful free enterprise system; anybody in the barnyard can earn as much as he or she wants. You should be happy to have this freedom; in other barnyards you would have to give all five loaves to the Farmer. Here you only have to give four loaves to your suffering neighbors.”

The Little Red Hen obliged and walked away in silence…

It has been some time since the Farmer’s lecture. The barnyard is now dilapidated, the animals are always hungry, and the Little Red Hen, well, she left some time ago.

The hostility toward the Little Red Hen’s success was based on greed and ignorance. Today, those who defend the profit motive face the same obstacles. Too many people are envious of a profitable business and/or just don’t understand profit. The U.S. now has the second highest corporate income tax rate in the industrialized world and the top 1 percent of income earners pay nearly 40 percent of all personal income taxes…will America’s little red hens keep investing in the U.S.?
- End quote

The one-percent earners, corporations, and profits are not dirty words in our family. We’ve got too many folks in the U.S riding in the wagon and not enough pushing it. The folks riding are whining about the folks pushing it and calling them “greedy one-percenters” and making profit seem like a dirty word. I’m more the pusher. The rider, whiner, not so much.

Be careful what you wish for.

CSA

16

@ CSA, that’s a fine story, but the “one percenters” are NOT the ones pulling the wagon.

You can get “comfortable” from the use of muscle and/or brain, but the only way to get “one percent” wealthy is through the use of capital. They aren’t pulling the wagon…or even steering the wagon…but sitting in the wagon, influencing government to pass laws favorable to wagon-owners.

17

Hail to the one %s . Still waiting for trickle down to work. Rather then , with all due repect, talk about chickens, hens, dusk and cows…just look at history. I doubt that there is any economist who thinks it’s healthy for the economy to have 5 % of it’s people with more then 60 % of the wealth and paying lower tax rates then the upper middle class. I don’t mind the wealthy getting wealthy… But money worshipers let them go along for the ride, do what they want and worry more about the poor… hording all the money

The top I % pay 40% of personal ncome tax but little or NOTHING to payroll tax…The middle class pays for nearly all the insurance premiums for healthcare, as well as social security and Medicare
; and fight the wars and die that ONLY the top 1 % profit on. They ALWAYS have. Does dying compensate for the income tax difference ? The top 1% normally show profit during recessions…,because they are harder working ? I think not…

18

Outstanding post, CSA. Everybody wants to share in the profits, nobody wants to share in the risk and the hard work.

In our system, those that have accumulated the wealth have generally reinvested their gains along the way. And, given the freedom and incentive to do so, will continue. Taking their gains away to redistribute is not, I would argue, incentive to reinvest…it’s incentive to move the money offshore.

Dag, we have dramatically different perspectives on the way the money flows and the way people act. That’s not new knowledge to us. I don’t think either of us could add any more than we’ve written in previous threads. I trust we’ll always be on opposite sides of the politcal isle.

19

As long as “risk and hard work” is defined by who gets up early to get to Wallstreet before the opening bell and risks a little of his investments and not who works in a plant, dies in wars, works in fields and toils several jobs to make ends meet or later, dies early with no health insurance while making decision between heating oil and food for their family…if that is how you and CSA define those who sit on the wagon…and not pull it, we will always be on different sides. Because really, we are talking about the working poor. The non working “wagon riders” are mostly the elderly. Too heck with them too, the darn freeloader non wagon pullers…let’m work or die early. My perspective is not defined by entities supported by the wealthy alone…Fox ?

20

A midwestern farmer has a large family and a productive farm with 5 sons and along with a section of corn he raises hogs, chickens, eggs and vegetables. The youngest son was somewhat sickly and was tasked with keeping the books and managing the market price to get the best price on the corn. After several years of particularly productive crops the father considers dividing the farm among the now grown and married sons and goes to the bank to get the numbers. The bank startles him with the news that the farm is mortgaged to the max and the soon to be harvested crop has already been sold and the money spent. At home the father investigates the money situation and finds that the youngest son has been a wheeler-dealer and operated the farm like a modern corporation by running it ‘lean and mean’ to pull off all cash and monetize all assets to invest in Wall St. The farm is upside down and the young son owns the Wall St stock. That son is the poster child of today’s wall st tycoons. All they are capable of doing is shuffling figures on paper to take advantage of the working people that they look down on.

This country is in decline because the vast majority of Americans are in decline. The Wall St ticker keeps telling US we are breaking records every day and a great many people believe it. The Fed and the Treasury continue to scramble in their efforts to shuffle the shells and add zeros to the phony tally sheet and investors transfer their share of zeros on to their tally sheets and ignore the cliff behind all those zeros.