Synthetic Motor Oil

Maintenance/Repairs
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41

What is the problem with reading comprehension? The only oil sample that counts is the one taken if or when there’s a problem. No problems, no samples. What is so difficult to understand?

My reading comprehension is fine…it’s your LOGIC…or lack that of is wrong.

The oil analysis done when the engine blew means NOTHING…Here’s an example…you buy a new car…and NEVER EVER change the oil until it reaches 50k miles…Then you change your oil…and 500 miles later the engine blows up…The oil analysis is going to show that the oil is FINE…But that doesn’t mean the engine wasn’t abused. See the FLAW in your logic. For the first 50k miles the engine was abused…the last 500 miles the engine had nice oil in it…the new oil isn’t going to fix the abuse the engine had for the previous 50k miles…

42

Sorry, don’t agree with your opinion.

43

Some oil change indicator systems use sensors on the pan. Your assertion otherwise is wrong.

44

Nicely done, Mike. Game, set, and match!

45

Sorry guys. You should be listening to Markkw instead of just getting into a shouting match and trying to have the last word. All you have to do is ask those who rack up the most miles in vehicles of all types in this world like our Army or Navy. They will tell you like Markkw is trying to tell you that the only thing that matters is “Was the oil lubricating sufficiently at the time of engine failure?” That is a question of the quality of the oil and whether or not it is meeting minimum standards according to its rating at all times. The oil itself does not lose lubrication unless polluted with dirt and contaminants or viscosity breakdown due to overheating. So the oil analysis will tell the story and provide facts for your case. The oil industry has been providing the science with lots of sophistication for well over a century. I would trust that science in court.

46

Do a little web search and you’ll find a very detailed test result report from an independent laboratory that doesn’t sell anything but their test results. Test after test puts synthetic way above even the most additive-laden petroleum oils. Fuel economy increase; friction coefficient reduction; lower oxygen uptake; film stability; superior on the stylus, four-ball and pin on disc wear tests; ranks 4-6 times higher long-term residual properties test; superior on Noack test … don’t believe me, go spend the $70 and read the report for yourself. Don’t trust that one, you can get one from Komatsu’s or Hitachi’s lab as well as a host of other sources.

47

Sorry, but every study I have seen that claims increased fuel economy with synthetic oil is sponsored by a company that sells synthetic oil. If you have an impartial source for such a claim, please post a link. Can you find an unbiased study that substantiates your claim?

48

Friend of mine went full synthetic on every fluid on his truck (oil, transmission, gear oil, transfercase fluid)…After doing all that he saw an increase of about .5mpg.

I believe in the benefits of synthetic oil…Especially here in the North East where we can have -20 mornings…but increase mpg isn’t one of them… And since I keep my vehicles well past 250k miles I want them performing well when I reach 300k miles. Regular dyno may get me there…but the last two vehicles I put300k miles one - neither one was burning 1 drop of oil even at 300k miles…My previous vehicles which had nothing buy regular dyno oil…started to burn a little by 250k…Not much oil…just mainly at startup.

Do a little web search and you’ll find a very detailed test result report from an independent laboratory that doesn’t sell anything but their test results.

You can find those same test results for Slick-50 (which is one bogus snake-oil product)…And you’ll find that all those independent labs that did the testing were paid for by the product who’s claiming the remarkable results…In other words those tests mean NOTHING…Here’s how it works…Company A gives Independent lab B $1,000,000 to do a study on their product…The independent lab knows that if they find favorable results they’ll get repeat business…if they find unfavorable results they won’t get repeat business…So want to guess what the results will be??? Sometimes the independent labs are nothing but a lab that is owned by the same company who commissioned the study…and the lab only does testing for them…

49

Absolutely because the oil (and filter) MUST maintain at least the minimum OEM spec’s for the duration of the change interval. If the oil and/or filter do not achieve that task, you have voided the warranty. If you run oil and a filter(s) that are capable of meeting/exceeding the minimum OEM spec’s for a period far longer than the OEM change interval, you have honored the warranty requirements.

But the ONE thing you’re NOT including is buy-products. Oil will get contaminated over time. The ONLY thing I’ve ever seen that will allow you to increase the oil change interval is by switching the vehicle to run on NG or Propane. I’ve seen oil drained out of an engine running on Propane after 10k miles and it looked like it was new.

50

… and 0.5 MPG is probably within the margin of error of a scientific study.

51

YUP…And it wasn’t that scientific…One car doesn’t make a valid study…Now if he had seen even a 10% increase in gas mileage…it would be worth further study…but .5 is insignificant.

52

Spent years in the military. Used, designed, qualified, sold, and built military equipment, including vehicle systems. Comparing the requirements of civilian warrantys to the requirements of military procurement is like comparing apples to…volcanos. Different worlds entirely.

I stand by my statement. Should warranty coverage become necessary for engine damage for the average car owner, not having evidence of having met the required maintenance schedule can result in a warranty claim being denied. It is certainly possible that with a good lawyer, oil analysis, money, persistance and endurance, such a denial could be overturned by a civil court. But doesn’t it just make more sense to follow the schedule?

53

{Sorry, but every study I have seen that claims increased fuel economy with synthetic oil is sponsored by a company that sells synthetic oil. If you have an impartial source for such a claim, please post a link. Can you find an unbiased study that substantiates your claim?}

Komatsu & Hitachi build heavy construction & industrial equipment, to the best of my knowledge neigther makes or brands synthetic oil. The independent lab I use charges $70 for the report because that’s what pays for their service and every report comes with a full financial disclosure.

The figures for fuel economy I’ve seen on different brands of synthetic vary somewhat but the average for typical passenger vehicles is 0.7% (percent, not miles per gallon) - every application will differ but in my experience it’s not so much the immediate results that matter, it’s the long term payback. A typical passenger car engine will steadily lose efficiency as wear increases - good quality synthetic considerably reduces wear and because the wear is reduced so too is the rate of efficiency loss reduced so the longer you go, the higher the efficiency difference becomes.

I don’t have a horse in this race but in the interest of full disclosure, I do sell a 100% synthetic precision instrument oil but it’s not for use in vehicle engines. There are certain brands that produce consistently better test results than others which is why I insist people do their own research and buy based on the facts, not sales hype or price tag. I don’t understand why everyone wants to bash me, I’m not pushing any brand of oil - merely pointing out the facts and facts consistenty prove synthetic oil is far superior to petroleum.

54

The figures for fuel economy I’ve seen on different brands of synthetic vary somewhat but the average for typical passenger vehicles is 0.7% (percent, not miles per gallon) - every application will differ but in my experience it’s not so much the immediate results that matter, it’s the long term payback.

Now I understand the problem…IT’S MATH…

A vehicle that gets 30mpg and the .7% increase in gas mileage as you claim…will yield a increase in .21mpg. Yup…HUGE savings there.

55

My applause also, Mike. Nice work. I wish I’d thought of that.

56

A single used oil analysis does not a published study make.

Since my question was never directly answered, I will ask it again, but worded slightly differently: Can you find an unbiased scientific study that substantiates your claim? If so, will you please post a link?

The figures for fuel economy I’ve seen on different brands of synthetic vary somewhat but the average for typical passenger vehicles is 0.7% (percent, not miles per gallon)

7/10 of one percent is well within the margin of error of most scientific studies.

At $4/gallon, with a 30 MPG car, a 5,000 mile oil change interval, and a 0.7% increase in fuel economy, using synthetic oil could save you a whopping $4.63 in fuel costs over the course of 5,000 miles, if that claim is legitimate.

What is the difference in price between four quarts of synthetic oil and four quarts of conventional oil? I believe it’s more than $4.63, so even if you could substantiate your fuel economy claims, it would be a poor economic choice.

I’m not pushing any brand of oil - merely pointing out the facts and facts consistenty prove synthetic oil is far superior to petroleum.

Nobody is arguing about the superiority of synthetic oil, but I dispute whether the benefits are significant in all applications. If you live an a really cold climate, and don’t have a block heater, I can see there would be some benefit. If you have a turbocharged car or a car that requires synthetic oil, like a hybrid, I can see the benefit. If you have a sludge-prone car, I can see the benefit. However, none of these criteria apply to the OP, or this discussion.

57

GOODTILLIMMOBILE, how can you ignore what MikeInNH wrote below?

Let’s say you change your oil every 10,000 miles, but the owner’s manual requires you to change it every 5,000 miles to maintain your warranty? Your engine seizes up at 10,500 miles, and a used oil analysis shows the oil was practically new. It doesn’t show, however, the damage done to your engine between 5,001 miles and 9,999 miles, does it? In fact, the data collected from a used oil analysis at 10,500 miles would tell you nothing about what happened to the engine between miles 5,001 and 9,999.

Here’s a better example. Let’s say you buy a new car and never change the oil. After 20,260 miles, the engine seizes. You have the car towed to your home, and change the oil before having it towed to the shop. In this scenario, the mechanic can tell by doing an engine tear-down it died because of a lack of oil changes, even if the oil in the engine is brand-spanking-new.

Go ahead and spend the money on a used oil analysis. It will get you nowhere, and the reason is deceptively logical.

58

Whitey, Again, reading comprehension is paramount. ?AVERAGE? means a combination of the HIGHEST and LOWEST … I know it?s a difficult concept to understand but in order to get an AVERAGE, it requires more than ?one test?. Instead of sitting around waiting for someone to spoon-feed you, why not make use of the ?search? box, you?ll find the links there because I?m not going to post a link only to get complaints that you actually have to pay for the information because the tests were NOT sponsored by any oil mfg.

You?re good with the simple math but fail to understand that the average efficiency loss for 5k service interval petroleum oil is around 10% over its 5k lifespan, typically with the majority of that loss occurring in the first 1-3k miles so for the remaining 2-4k miles the efficiency difference becomes far greater. Petroleum oil meeting the minimum requirements for a 3k service interval can lose >25% efficiency over its lifespan. If your 5k petroleum oil loses 6% efficiency at the 3k.and your initial 30mpg is now down to 28.2mpg. Petroleum oil meeting the minimum requirements for a 3k service interval can lose >25% efficiency over its lifespan. Then factor in the amount of efficiency loss attributed to the average wear occurring over 50k or 75k using petroleum oil verses synthetic and you?ll quickly see a considerable difference. Using real test data, the highest rated 5k service interval petroleum oil loses 7% efficiency over its 5k lifespan which works out to roughly 3k of those miles being run at 3.5% less efficiency which means that a good synthetic effectively produces a 4.2% efficiency increase if you care to play the number-twisting game. Personally, I?m not into ?games?, the facts are what they are no matter if you choose to understand or accept them.

59

the facts are what they are no matter if you choose to understand or accept them.

Markkw:
I read through your replies, trying to understand and be convinced by the points you’re making. However, it’s not adding up.

You keep stressing that you have the “facts”, as if others do not. Yet what you’re calling your “facts” are really the opinions you’ve developed over the years from your experiences. That is no different from the many others on this forum who collectively have a rich background of experiences.

I don’t doubt you have some valid points to make, but don’t you think some of them would be heard if you did a little listening to others?

60

Using real test data, the highest rated 5k service interval petroleum oil loses 7% efficiency over its 5k lifespan which works out to roughly 3k of those miles being run at 3.5% less efficiency which means that a good synthetic effectively produces a 4.2% efficiency increase if you care to play the number-twisting game.

What you’re NOW saying is there’s a loss of 7% efficiency over 5k miles lifespan…For arguments sake…let’s say that’s true…that does NOT mean that’s a 7% savings is gas mileage. Sorry, but you’re conclusion is way off.

If what you claim is true…(Synthetic oil will give you a substantial gain in gas mileage…) Then every single auto manufacturer would be REQUIRING synthetic oil so they can easily meet their Cafe’ numbers. If you look at the Ford’s and GM’s numbers you’ll see that they are right on the edge of those numbers. So now you have this easily solution for them…just use synthetic oil…abandon the Millions of dollars you do every year in research…just use synthetic oil…You should sell this idea to GM and Ford…Even if they gave you 1 million dollars they’d be out ahead.