Me too. 
A+ for math
F for reading. Whoops, sorry. Comprehension.
My apologies for thinking it was directed at me.
The usual suspects saying the usual things.
I read this same old stuff for years. About a year and a half ago, I drove my 2002 Sienna, warranty long expired, to 8800 miles with Mobil-1 EP, and had it tested. All parameters were still good, and as best as I could project, it would have gone to 10,000 miles as good oil.
Most of my driving is highway driving, south of the Snow Belt.
I will be changing my oil, for the most part, at 8,000 miles now.
Those who say all sorts of things, such as synthetic isnât worth the money are simply guessing. They donât know. They have their own reasons for what they do, which is perfectly correct, but go beyond that and push their own decision as if it were based on fact.
My next experiment will be dino oil for 5,000 miles and test, to see if it is true that synthetic is no better. I believe it is, and well worth it. But, I want to know for sure.
By the way, the posts that are removed. It is either two or three clicks by different people on the abuse icon and it is gone. No one ever reads it. This was intended to help remove abusive postings with no moderator costs. But, sometimes it is an attempt by several people to suppress freedom of expression for those who disagree with them.
But, yes, any remaining warranty means change per manufacturer requirements, no matter what oil you use. It is still their motor and the cost of that warranty is maintaining it per their rules.
ave an independent third-party pull an oil sample, end of discussion on warranty issues - BTDT.
WRONGâŠThe only way that MIGHT workâŠis if you had the analysis done every time you did an oil change (which is cost prohibitive)âŠWhen you donât follow the manufacturers PM schedule and something happens to the vehicle the burden is then put on you to prove that YOUR schedule didnât harm the vehicle. Itâll cost you a lot more PROVING that then just following the manufacturers schedule.
The only thing that matters in a warranty is the minimum lubrication requirement such as API SJ or API CJ-4, if the oil meets or exceeds the minimum as defined by those ratings at the time of failure, the change interval becomes irrelevant because the primary warranty concern has been met which is the quality of the lubricant. No mfg can mandate, as part of the warranty or anything else, that a consumer be forced to replace lubricant that meets/exceeds the minimum standards as per the warranty agreement or service manual.
Mfgâs are going to try to get out of warranty costs any way they can and most consumers are too stupid to stand-up for themselves, they just pay and the mfg wins without a fight. Fellow has his used truck with balance of factory warranty and an extended warranty he purchased. Truck was serviced faithfully according to OEM spec?s at a quick lube shop for which the owner had all the receipts. Before the OEM warranty was up, the engine started knocking so he had it towed to the dealer; dealer claimed the failure was caused by ?oil sludge and therefore both the OEM & purchased warranty were void?. Owner lost to the dealer in court because he could not prove the oil met the minimum standards for the warranty. Owner went back to court with the quick lube shop and lost again because they?re not responsible for the oil, just the ?workman-like manner of providing the service?. Owner then took the oil mfg to court and lost again because he had no proof that the oil had in fact failed.
Neighbor lady purchased a new minivan and had it serviced faithfully at the dealership she purchased it from. Engine failed long before the warranty period expired and the dealer claimed the failure was caused by ?improper servicing?. She ended up in court and lost because after she produced all the service receipts from the dealership, the dealer?s lawyer argued that the van owner put some type of un-approved additive in the engine after it left the dealer?s service bay. She lost because she had no proof that oil had not been tampered with.
Fellow purchased a brand new car with a 6/60 warranty. Following the break-in period he changed it over to high-quality synthetic oil and a dual-filter sytem with greatly extended oil changes. All he had was a notebook of his servicing and a few odd receipts for oil & filters. Just shy of the 60K warranty limit the engine suffered a catastrophic failure, car was towed off the interstate to a private shop and he had them pull two oil samples, one sent off for analysis, the other retained just in case it would be needed. Car was then towed to the dealer who insisted it was the synthetic oil and modified lubrication system that caused the failure. When they got to court, the dealer produced the warranty agreement, the car owner produce the oil sample report and the spec sheet for the minimum OEM oil requirements, he won the case only because of that oil sample, nothing else mattered because the oil sample was proof positive that the condition of the oil at the time of failure exceeded the required minimum OEM spec?s.
It doesn?t matter what you have for receipts or anything else, if you don?t have the oil analysis that proves the oil was sufficient at the time the engine failed, you?re more than likely going to loose in court.
Also consider that the warrantor will see if the filter failed and if it did, they?re not covering the repair costs, you?ll be stuck trying to go after the filter mfg and if you don?t have proof documented by an independent third party that the filter failed, you?re wasting your time and money even going to court.
I donât know what this fascination is with cost ⊠throwing away oil and filter pre-maturely costs roughly twice as much as running decent synthetic and quality filters. Thereâs less aggravation, cost and effort associated with synthetic oil use - 5K change the filter and top-off the sump, 10K change the filter and top-off the sump, 15K change oil & filter. Changing the filter and topping off the sump takes less than five minutes and only generates 1/2 quart or less of waste oil - whatâs so aggravating and costly? You would rather change the oil and filter five times instead - thatâs generating 20 quarts of waste oil and costing roughly four times as much money not to mention all the time thatâs wasted too.
Sorry man, Iâm not trying to beat this horse to death but Iâve done this stuff for a living for far too long. Iâve run the numbers, all the numbers, over and over again and no matter how you twist it, synthetic comes out on top every time not only for being far less costs on the PM side but also providing far better wear protection which greatly extends the overhaul intervals. Of course, it doesn?t matter how good the oil is if the filters suck - if you buy good quality filters, combine them with decent synthetic oil and theyâre going to save you a considerable sum of money in both routine maintenance and premature failure/overhaul costs.
You folks knocking the cost of oil samples ⊠an approved collection kit, testing and postage (total cost) is just $15-30 depending on who does the test and how detailed the testing. Hardly âcost prohibitiveâ when considering the fact that without a documented sample, youâre probably going to loose in ANY warranty claim. BTW, it is NOT necessary to maintain long-term testing data because if the oil meets/exceeds the OEM specâs at the time of failure, youâre covered - long term wear is based on the warranty period, if the warranty is 100k then it must last 100K based on the âMINIMUM OEM oil quality specâsâ.
So whatâs more cost effective? $50 for documentation ($25 for an oil sample and $25 to have it pulled & documented by an independent shop) or $1500+ for an overhaul? I donât care if youâre changing the oil & filter every 500 miles, if the engine craps and you donât have an oil sample to produce as proof that the oil was good, youâre more than likely going to be paying for the repairs out of your pocket.
Um, as far as I know, no manufacturer actually uses a sensor to determine when itâs time to change the oil. The interval is based on driving habits, mileage, and possibly factors like outside temps and warm-up time, plugged into an algorithm. No sensor.
I still wouldnât change oil at 15K intervals, regardless of what the monitoring system tells you. I think GM recently had cause to reprogram theirs after some engine wear issues.
I really think it depends on the manufacterer. I know my Toyota little maintenance light (really, itâs just an oil change reminder), clicks on at 5K. Doesnât matter how I drive those 5K, as Iâve doen both, majority higway (like back and forth from South Texas to South Florida) and city (around and about Tampa and/or San Antonio).
Youâre correct in that the oil used must meet the manufacturerâs recommended specs.
Youâre very wrong in that failure to have it changed IAW the manufacturerâs recommended schedule is irrelevant. What would be irrelevant is your oil analysis.
IMHO youâre going through an awful lot of work to avoid following the manufacturerâs recommended oil change schedule. And even more work trying to convince us that itâs irrelevant.
Youâve done exactly what âfor a living far too longâ? Changed oil? This forum is loaded with guys whoâve repaired vahicles and torn down and rebuilt engines for âfar too longâ. And many whoâs worked as mechanics âfar too longâ, much of it at dealerships. And many like myself whoâve been working on their own cars and others for over 40 yearsâŠand who made their livings as engineers, chemists, and in other technical fields. If you think youâre the only one here qualified to talk about oil changes, if you think yours is the only correct opinion, youâre mistaken.
You âdonât know what this fascination is with costâ? Which one of us is fascinated with cost? My recommendation is to just follow the manufacturerâs recommendation. Youâre the one going through extra efforts and recommending leaving oneself open to warranty denial in order to save a buck.
Iâm sorry, I respect your right to do what youâre doing, but Iâll continue to recommend that others not exceed the recommended oil change mileage and will continue to do so myself. And iâll continue to suggest to others that to do otherwise is to risk denial of their warranty claim should they have an engine problem.
You are 100% correct in stating that for many of us who say it isnât worth it itâs simply an opinion. Ther really exists no data that Iâm aware of to support either argument.
But I do feel an obligation to respond when I hear someone say that it saves money, increases fuel mileage, and particularly that extending the miles between changes wonât affect ones warranty.
Each of us has our own beliefs and preferences based on our own experiences. We all need to respect that. But the warranty is cut & dry.
It doesn?t matter what you have for receipts or anything else, if you don?t have the oil analysis that proves the oil was sufficient at the time the engine failed, you?re more than likely going to loose in court.
WOWâŠMechanic AND LawyerâŠGreat combination.
Youâve only showed anecdotal evidence. GreatâŠthatâs what youâve EXPERIENCEDâŠbut that doesnât mean itâs a FACT.
You folks knocking the cost of oil samples ⊠an approved collection kit, testing and postage (total cost) is just $15-30 depending on who does the test and how detailed the testing.
Not saying they donât workâŠWhat Iâm saying is they arenât cost effective. Sounds like what youâre saying is that you change your oil every 10k milesâŠhave an analysis done and thatâs itâŠWell what happens at 50k miles later when your engine blows upâŠYou going to show them the oil analysis you did 50k miles previously??? They ONLY way youâll ever win this in court is if you have an analysis done every time you do an oil changeâŠwhich is NOT cost effective. I suggest you run your numbers againâŠbecause youâre math is pretty pour.
Youâre not understanding something, if the OEM mfg specifies minimum standards for the lubrication, that is the primary mechanical concern, not the âchange intervalâ because as long as the lubricant meets the minimum standards, the warranty obligation has been met. If you only follow the change interval and the lubricant quality does not meet the minimum, you have voided the warranty. You run top-quality petroleum oil and a crap filter, normally that oil will not meet the OEM minimum spec after about 2K miles and if the engine happens to crap out, itâs on your wallet.
Iâve specâed the materials and created schedules based on testing and performance ⊠everything from teaching the know-nothing new hires to standing before the board of directors or owner explaining methods, materials and, most importantly, the numbers. Iâve dealt with warranty issues numerous times and some ended up in court because the mfg adamantly refused to honour the warranty. Every singe argument, in and out of court, was won based solely on the results of the oil sample testing. Several times the court ruled that the detailed maintenance records were completely âirrelevantâ because the records cannot prove the quality of the consumables at the time of failure.
Youâre certainly welcome to your opinion but the fact of the matter is that just because you throw your oil and filter away when the mfg tells you to does not by any means validate your warranty obligation and youâll figure that out the first time you get stuck paying for an engine/transmission ⊠then youâll wish youâd have listened to the real world experience.
Personally, I donât much care what people do, if they want to waste their money, itâs their money to waste. I just try to answer the questions and point out the advantages and options that are available as well as what they must do no matter what to ensure they donât get screwed. When it comes to proper PM, itâs either all or nothing, thereâs no âmiddle-groundâ or âalmostâ. If youâre going to have your oil changed anywhere other than the dealer, you better make for sure the filter doesnât just âfitâ the mount but that it actually meets or exceeds the OEM specâs. Same with the oil, if it breaks down or is otherwise compromised prior to the OEM specified change schedule, you have voided the warranty. Options to use decent or high quality synthetic, add a secondary filter or complete filter network are available to those who wish to do so without voiding their warranty. Why does it upset you so that I point out the options, benefits, cost savings and the facts associated with being denied a warranty claim?
As I stated before: When done properly, using decent quality synthetic oil reduces the number of oil changes but does involve âfilter-onlyâ changes at specified intervals between oil changes. Over the long run, using decent synthetic oil and a high-quality filter will save you more than 50% on PM costs and extend the overhaul intervals on average of 25-45% depending on the application and consumables ⊠not to mention all the money that adds up from the engine operating at higher efficiency levels.
You claim Iâm going through a lot of cost & hassle ⊠letâs see, I already told you, no oil sample youâre going to get screwed on a warranty claim so thatâs done ⊠letâs look at the cost.
You run a 3K oil & filter change, letâs call it $25 per service. In 60K youâll do 20 changes for a total of $500
Typical synthetic application runs 5K filter change, 15K oil change and Iâll use an average price of $20/5qts oil and $10 for the filter & 1/2qt oil. In 60K thatâs 4 oil changes ($80) and 12 filter-only changes ($120) for a grand total of $200
Now, if something goes wrong, youâre going to need that oil sample anyway so even when we add $50 in for that, youâre still saving $250 or 50% and likely giving your engine a lot longer lease on life.
How about the environmental concerns? Your 3K changes are generating 25 gallons of waste oil while the synthetic operation generates just 6.5 gallons of waste oil.
What is the problem with reading comprehension? The only oil sample that counts is the one taken if or when thereâs a problem. No problems, no samples. What is so difficult to understand?
And donât ever insult me by calling me a lawyer! I have just been forced to deal with them way too many times!
Depends on the application as to when I change my oil. In my minivan filter is changed every 5K and the synthetic oil every 15K and to date I have had to replace everything but the synthetic lubricated engine components at least once but itâs only got 247K on it. My '91 F-150 was on the same change interval following the initial break-in period and it only had 382K on it when it was stolen and not a single lubrication issue. Eighteen 4cyl Chevy Cosicaâs in one fleet all running synthetic, seventeen of them with 230K+ without a lube problem - one had a broken connecting rod, not attributed to the oil (bad casting) and after repaired it continued on past the 200K mark without issue. Contrast that to all those running 3K changes with petroleum oil and whatever filter that never even made it to the 100k mark.
Next.
You submit your claims using an oil analysis if youâd like instead of evidence of having met the manufacturerâs maintenance schedule. Good luck.
I prefer to simply follow the warranty quidelines, one of which is to provide evidence that Iâve met the scheduled maintenance requirements.
Perhaps itâs been a while since youâve read your warranty requirements. Perhaps it would be prudent to do so. If you choose not to, I wish you the best.
By the way, if you have evidence that youâve met the maintenance schedule you donât need an oil analysis. If you do not, the analysis will do you absolutely no good.
To me, there is data to support the fact that synthetic oil is better under certain circumstances than conventional oil.
The data that I look at is for the type of driving i do with my cars.
When I tow trailers with my cars, I need an oil that doesnât break down easily at low temperatures, and doesnât turn into oil mist, get sucked into the PCV system, and then burned by the engine. Synthetic oils are better at extreme temperatures than conventional oil.
When I do a cold start is sub zero weather, synthetic oil flows better, and offer full lubrication better during the full oil change interval than conventional oil does.
When I drive my car on the track, and am revving the car well above 6k rpms, I need an oil that takes the heat, provides the protection, and doesnât get consumed by the PCV system. Conventional oil doesnât handle these conditions nearly as well as synthetic oil does.
Now, a person who just drives their car to work, and picks up groceries is never going to see the conditions that my cars do, so they arenât going to need synthetic oil. And thatâs fine for them. I, however, need the extra protection of synthetic oil in my engines.
So, yes, for me, it saves money going with synthetic oil.
The engine doesnât get carboned up, blow up, and I donât have to pour in as much make up oil during an oil change interval with synthetic oil. That saves me money both on oil, and on an engine replacement. I still change at the recommended interval when under warranty, of course.
The other thing is when you run into an engine that warns you NOT to use synthetic oil, like a rotary engine in a Mazda RX-8 does. Well, thatâs pretty cut and dry. Donât use it, no matter what. Use synthetic, or semi-synthetic, and Mazda will deny your warranty claim. So in this case, I canât use it. Wish I could.
BC.
That isnât data. Thatâs personal experience. Data comes only from analysis. Opinion comes from personal experience. Facts only come from data.
I have nothing against synthetic. I only stated that in my opinion, based on my personal experience, unless the manufacturere recommends synthetic the added cost isnât justified. I stand by thatâŠalthough if I rewrote it Iâd add a caveat for severe weather or use.
I also stated that I donât recommend that others extend the period between oil changes because theyâre using synthetic. It seems to me to be counterproductive. When a warranty is concerned, it will leave the vehicle owner subject to denial of a warranty claim. Thatâs in writing. Thatâs fact. While you may have no regard for the written warranty requirements, the dealer just might.
Iâve never had an engine carbon up. Iâve never had one blow up. Iâve never had an oil burner. I check and top off my oil regularly anyway, so thereâs no makeup oil during an oil change. Typically in my current engine I put in about 1/2 quart at 4500 miles, then drain & change at 5000 miles.
I used my '89 pickup to go to work and get groceries. I also used it to haul wood, haul gravel, haul rocks, haul concrete blocks, and countless other things. The wood and the rocks got hauled routinely, both out of a construction site.
Look, youâre welcome to continue your practices. But to claim that the use of synthetic saves money because you can then extend the oil change periods to double what the ownerâs manual recommends is misleading. And to claim that it wonât leave the vehicle owner risking having a warranty claim denied is just plain wrong.
Mark, are you saying that oil change intervals are not as important as oil specs?
I think I must be misunderstanding something here. Just about all oil meets manufacturers specs or exceeds it. The suspension of combustion by products that an oil can handle is important, but changing old oil at prudent interval is important.
After 37 years of working on cars professionally{and winning court cases of this very subject},I tend to disagree with your point of view on this matter.
{âare you saying that oil change intervals are not as important as oil specs?â}
Absolutely because the oil (and filter) MUST maintain at least the minimum OEM specâs for the duration of the change interval. If the oil and/or filter do not achieve that task, you have voided the warranty. If you run oil and a filter(s) that are capable of meeting/exceeding the minimum OEM specâs for a period far longer than the OEM change interval, you have honored the warranty requirements.
I donât know how much clearer I can make this. Your, and anyone elseâs âopinionâ means nothing, FACTS are the only thing that matter and if you donât have the FACTS (proof the oil condition at time of failure), you have no defense. My neighbor lady found that out the hard way, all service done and documented at the OEM dealer who sold her the van - same OEM dealer changed their story twice as to why the engine failed, yet because she did not have âproofâ that she honored the warranty requirements and she lost - a mere $25 oil test report would have saved her a couple thousand in engine repairs and loss of the remaining warranty.
I have gone to court several times as well and won every single time because I was able to provide definitive proof in the form of an oil sample test report that the warranty requirements were more than met. At least a couple dozen times the matter was settled in minutes by simply faxing the oil sample report to the warranty provider.
An âopinionâ is worth nothing - a $25 oil sample report is worth parts, labor and the balance of the warranty period (unless you use inferior materials, then itâs going to screw you as it well should).
Synthetic is superior to dino oil (does not break down as fast, less prone to sludge, etc). You get what you pay for and peace of mind.
Do I use synthetic, change the oil & filter in my cars (Acura[4.5qt] and MB[8.5qt])?..yes and I change them every 6 and 12 months respectivelyâŠboth per manufacturerâs recommendation.