Whitey, Again, reading comprehension is paramount. ?AVERAGE? means a combination of the HIGHEST and LOWEST … I know it?s a difficult concept to understand but in order to get an AVERAGE, it requires more than ?one test?. Instead of sitting around waiting for someone to spoon-feed you, why not make use of the ?search? box, you?ll find the links there because I?m not going to post a link only to get complaints that you actually have to pay for the information because the tests were NOT sponsored by any oil mfg.
I know what “average” means, but let’s be clear, because some people use the term for the mean, and some also apply it to the median. I assumed you were referring to the mean, and I know how it is calculated.
I have indicated that I have searched for an unbiased study that supports your position, but when I do my own search, I only find studies where the source of funding creates a conflict of interest. That is why I placed the burden of proof on you to substantiate your claims. I am not so lazy that I can’t perform my own internet searches, and since you seem so vehement in your position, I hoped you could substantiate it with some proof. If you have taken a position you can’t support, you must be talking from an orifice other than your mouth.
If the problem is that your source is a pay-per-view site, how about capturing a screen shot of the proof and attaching the image to a post? If you have proof, why would you withhold it? It makes no sense.
You make a lot of claims, but again, I am waiting for some proof in the form of unbiased data. You claim you simply choose not to substantiate your claims, but from where I am sitting, I can’t tell if you are unwilling or unable. Maybe it’s both.
Yes Mike, that’s right and that 7% efficiency loss is for the highest rated 5k petroleum oil - care to look at some other brands that show efficiency losses in the 15-22% range over 5k?
Perhaps if you bothered even attempting to understand this before spouting off, maybe you’d eventually grasp the understanding that the base performance gains from synthetic are not what counts, it’s the loss prevention that counts in the overall.
Ya’know, history continues to repeat itself because all your arguments are just like the ones I heard in the late 70’s and 80’s about how bad fuel injection was. Let me ask you something - I know you don’t know the answer but I’m going ask anyway … if synthetic oils did not provide considerable advantage to petroleum oils, why has the aircraft industry lead the world in the use of synthetics? Why have heavy equipment mfg’s put so much interest and money into testing and changing to synthetic oils when they have absolute no interest in selling oil of any kind?
I paid the $70 but you want me to “give” you a screenshot? Don’t think so, go buy the report yourself and you’ll have plenty of “proof” - don’t be shy, spread that wealth around.
I don’t make any “claims”, I rely on “fact”, not “opinion” - when you have the facts to support your “opinion” why don’t you supply them? Show me an unbiased laboratory report of all the test results proving that quality synthetic lubricants are not superior to petroleum.
Show me an unbiased laboratory report of all the test results proving that quality synthetic lubricants are not superior to petroleum.
I never suggested synthetic oil isn’t a superior lubricant. I simply stated, quite clearly, that:
-Using synthetic oil is often not the economically wise choice for vehicles that don’t require it because of special needs. Some special needs include turbo-charged engines, vehicles in cold climates that don’t use block heaters, and cars that are required by the manufacturer to use synthetic oil, like hybrids.
-Claims of increased fuel economy with synthetic oil are dubious, and have yet to be proven in a published unbiased study.
Now who is having a problem with literacy and comprehension?
He keeps changing his story…back-peddling…Inconsistent in what he keeps saying…And doesn’t understand the science or technology about what he’s talking about…Let alone the 7th grade math.
Yes Mike, that’s right and that 7% efficiency loss is for the highest rated 5k petroleum oil - care to look at some other brands that show efficiency losses in the 15-22% range over 5k?
So what does that mean?? (This I gotta hear).
I’ll tell you what it DOESN’T mean…
. It DOESN’T mean you’re going to get a 7% increase in gas mileage…
. It DOESN’T mean you’re going to get a 7% increase in performance…
. It DOESN’T mean you’re going to get a 7% increase in Longevity…
Now start arguing against things I’ve actually said…
This whole argument started with YOU saying the GREAT gas mileage increase…WELL…I’M WAITING…Unlike you …I actually took Physics and Chemistry in College while getting my degree in Computer Science then then my Masters in Applied Mathematics. Sorry, but you’re lack of the basic understanding of science is starting to show.
Fuel injection? You’d like to discuss fuel injection? You’re comparing opinions of synthetoc oil with opinions of fuel injection? Are you familiar with the evolution of fuel injection systems?
Aircraft? Turbines or recips? Radial or horizontally opposed? Capable of inverted flight?
Do you have any idea how many different lubricants there are? Do you have any idea why? Are you familiar with the lubrication system of a radial? Are you familiar with the differences in lubrication systems between the typical aircraft engine and one certified for inverted flight? Do you understand the differences between the needs of other applications and the needs of automobile engines?
"go buy the report yourself and you’ll have plenty of “proof”<<<
Where do we buy this report Mark? You don’t need to post a link, just give us the name of the company! Why are you so evasive about where to find this ‘$70 report’???
MikeinNH is 100% correct- if synthetic increased mileage significantly, all the US manufacturers would require it to better their MPG numbers for CAFE.
I run diesels (TDI and Cummins) in Alaska so I run synthetic. It’s cold in the winter and dusty in the summer (many gravel roads). I think synthetic is superior in every way, but I have yet to find a truly independent study relating to better mpg. Please drop the games and pretense and simply tell us the name of the lab or website, if it exists (which I doubt).
On a related (to the OP) note- I used to work for a company that owned a truck stop, and got to know a lot of truckers. These are guys who make their living by NOT breaking down on the road if they can help it. More than one of them told me they would go 50k between oil changes, but changed the filters every 5k. None of them ran synthetic to my knowledge. I discussed that with a Hastings rep I knew, and he made this point- oil does not wear out. Ever. It becomes contaminated, or it may break down from extreme heat, but it doesn’t wear out. So theoretically, if you could keep your oil clean enough (LP and NG have been mentioned as better alternatives) and cool enough you would never have to change it- just the filter.
I don’t know the legalities of manufacturers warranties, but I’m sure the slimeball lawyers they hire can weasel out of most claims regardless of intervals or sample tests.
Just my $.02!
Hey Mike, just because you have some papers doesn’t mean you know anything and it shows. I have degrees too, so what’s your point? Isn’t it interesting how a discussion turns into a personal attack simply because someone challenges the opinion of ignorance? You’re papers are worthless unless you can grasp the practical application. Dozens of industrial and fleet PM programs are still in use the way I developed them over a decade ago and they wouldn?t have lasted if they weren?t working. So how much experience do you have developing PM programs for fleets of vehicles, construction, mining and industrial equipment? Chemistry huh? Care to explain the SC&M tests and what is to be learned from them? Care to explain ILPET and FPE methods and why they are so important? So, big man Mike, want to turn this personal throwing around your computer science degree on an automotive forum, why are you getting so upset when someone calls you on your worthless bull? You?re ignorant when it comes to oil and stupid when it comes to conducting yourself on a public forum. The 7th grade comment is very adult of you, did they teach you that in computer science?
{I discussed that with a Hastings rep I knew, and he made this point- oil does not wear out. Ever. It becomes contaminated, or it may break down from extreme heat, but it doesn’t wear out.}
… and the earth is flat too. Truckers and an oil filter salesman is your source of information ? that?s impressive! I suppose you would also consult the Wal-Mart electronics counter on generation phase synchronization controllers or the local tire shop concerning cascaded array pneumatic utility systems?
Petroleum oil doesn?t wear out huh? What about the additives that make it work for the application? Ever hear of oxygen uptake? The Noack volatility test? Film shear stability? Foaming? Microbial degradation?
And to think … if only all those people who have spent decades of their lives studying lubricants had just talk to some truck drivers…
You keep spouting all these tests…and all these studies…and you’ve yet to show ONE…JUST ONE that was independent and was NOT bought and paid for by the oil industry…
Again you keep arguing against something I never said…Now…If you want to discuss things I said…GREAT…but stop arguing against something I never said…It’s called being an adult…Where have I ever said that synthetic oil is NOT SUPERIOR to regular dyno oil…WHERE…SHOW ME…I’m waiting…This whole discussion is about how synthetic oil INCREASES GAS MILEAGE…You haven’t shown that…Instead you keep repeating the dogma about how superior synthetic oil is…GREAT…We all agree…so what…That has NOTHING to do with INCREASED GAS MILEAGE…
As for the 7th grade math…Again you arguing how much it improves MPG you said the following…
The figures for fuel economy I’ve seen on different brands of synthetic vary somewhat but the average for typical passenger vehicles is 0.7% (percent, not miles per gallon) - every application will differ but in my experience it’s not so much the immediate results that matter, it’s the long term payback.
Do the math (if you can)… 0.7% is INSIGNIFICANT…There is no payback…for a vehicle that gets 30mpg that 0.7% equates to a 0.21mpg increase…What payback??? Show me that math…I’m really interested.
why are you getting so upset when someone calls you on your worthless bull
You haven’t called me on ANYTHING…You keep arguing about something I NEVER SAID…SHOW ME ONE SENTENCE WHERE I EVER SAID SYNTHETIC OIL ISN’T SUPERIOR…ONE…JUST ONE…
If fact if you EVER read anything I ever said in this forum…you’ll find that “Guess What” - I use Synthetic oil…BUT NOT FOR THE INCREASE IN GAS MILEAGE …Why…BECAUSE THERE IS NONE…I use it because I tend to keep my vehicles to 300k+ miles…And it’s great for those days when temps drop to -20…and it’s GREAT when I do a lot of towing over the summer months…NOT because of the increase in gas mileage…
I also noticed how you dropped out of the discussion when I PROVED how worthless your oil analysis is…
Wow, markkw, do you sound bitter and resentful, all because you have been called out on your belief that synthetic oil improves fuel economy.
If you can’t prove your claim, just let it go. Nobody can win every argument, and the intelligent person knows when he’s been beat. It’s happened to me. It’s happened to MikeinNH, and now it’s happened to you. If you can’t be big enough to admit your failure to prove your belief, at least learn something from the experience … or don’t … but please put a lid on your bitter sarcasm. All it’s doing is make you look bad.
Neither you nor Mike can seem to grasp the concept of ?long-term? nor even figure out how to search “Komatsu Hitachi Synthetic” to educate yourselves before throwing your ignorance around like it’s a badge of honor. The record is clear on who had to resort to personal insults because they cannot understand even the most basic concepts of lubrication. What?s your resume entries on fleet and industrial PM? You have how much experience in design and fabrication of custom vehicles and machinery? You?re work in the PM & industrial fields has been published how many times in trade journals?
Just what do you think I have to gain here? Do you think I’m a Halliburton plant who reports directly to Dick Cheney because we’re trying to destroy the George Bush petroleum oil empire? Good grief man, get a life! Have I tried pitching any particular product brands or services? There?s a reason I won?t post links and that?s because it shows favoritism and I refuse to do that because it implies that I have something to gain when I don?t! I?m not selling anything and therefor have absolutely nothing to gain from this so why do you assume there?s some ulterior motive on my part? Does it not stand to reason that if I was trying to pitch some product or service I?d take every opportunity to link to it?
You say I?m ?bitter? yet was it I who resorted to childish insults?
?Resentful?? For what do I have to be resentful of? Am I resenting that you haven?t purchased the products or services I linked to?
So, let’s see if I can summarize everything I’ve been reading on this ridiculous and embarrassing thread, in a manner the OP can maybe even use, and ignore the rest of the “banter” you guys have reduced youself to spouting. Even though by now, I’m sure the poor guy is just deleting the e-mail notifications that there was an answer on his thread so he probably will never even see this:
Synthetic oil is a superior lubricant, and if required by the manufacturer (for whatever reasons such as turbos, etc) then you should use it, however, all vehicles MAY see a longer term benefit in reduced internal engine wear.
Synthetic oil MAY cause a slight mileage increase, although the average driver won’t notice this, and unless you’re performing your own study under extremely controlled conditions, you most likely won’t notice it, either.
Synthetic oil is more expensive than natural oil. I don’t think that needs any explanation.
These may or may not apply to other lubrication systems, but really, in this thread, we were talking about automobile engine oil.
And now…I will attempt to actually answer his only question: The cost difference is something you have to decide whether or not to pay, keeping in mind the items above, the most important of which is car longevity. The best way to ensure longevity is to keep up with the maintenance schedule of your vehicle, and also ensure things like timing belts and transmissions are serviced, regardless of how often the manufacturer thinks it may last.
AND…if you have more questions, come back and ask. Try and be as specific as possible.
Best of luck,
Chase
Clearly, there are lots of differing opinions. I personally prefer synthetics, but only because I like them, prefer to buy into some of the hype, and one of my vehicles requires them, so it’s easier to just get a single oil and do them both.
Mike, running an engine on propane or natural gas will result in clean oil but the oil is still subject to nitriding, which is not visible. So if you run such an engine on regular oil, you get some extended drain interval, but a test for nitriding will show when to change.
EXXON developed a special oil for gas powered vehicles, and it was guaranteed for 20,000 miles with the bright filter.
Neither you nor Mike can seem to grasp the concept of ?long-term? nor even figure out how to search
We BOTH have a concept of long-term…it’s YOU who don’t.
You claim increased Gas mileage…This can be quantified with math…Since you make this claim…SHOW ME MATHEMATICALLY how it can be true…I already showed you the insignificant gas mileage increase based on YOUR claim of the 0.7% increase…so PROVE me wrong…Show me YOUR math that says there’s an increase in gas mileage…I’LL WAIT…
The record is clear on who had to resort to personal insults because they cannot understand even the most basic concepts of lubrication. What?s your resume entries on fleet and industrial PM? You have how much experience in design and fabrication of custom vehicles and machinery? You?re work in the PM & industrial fields has been published how many times in trade journals?
AGAIN…This is an argument for why Synthetic oil is superior…AGAIN…LET ME SAY THIS SLOWLY AND IN CAPS SO YOU CAN SEE IT…WE ALL AGREE THAT SYNTHETIC OIL IS SUPERIOR…NEVER EVER SAID OTHERWISE…SO WHY THE H*LL DO YOU KEEP ARGUING THAT POINT.
If you want people to have any respect for anything you say…then stop being a child and stop arguing against something NO ONE HAS EVER SAID…
Nothing. In fact, that’s the exact point I was trying to make when I politely suggested you give it a rest. The more you say, the more you prove you can’t prove your point, so now that we agree you have nothing to gain, how about giving it a rest?
Do you think I’m a Halliburton plant who reports directly to Dick Cheney because we’re trying to destroy the George Bush petroleum oil empire?
No, I don’t. Why would you ask such a ridiculous question?
There?s a reason I won?t post links and that?s because it shows favoritism and I refuse to do that because it implies that I have something to gain when I don?t!
Posting a link to an unbiased scientific study wouldn’t show favoritism or that you have something to gain. It would only show you have a leg to stand on and that you aren’t talking out of your tailpipe.
I?m not selling anything and therefor have absolutely nothing to gain from this so why do you assume there?s some ulterior motive on my part?
I haven’t assumed you have an ulterior motive. The only thing I have assumed is that you are unwilling or unable to prove your point.
All I have said to you is “prove your fuel economy claim.” You haven’t. If you aren’t going to, please stop wasting everyone’s time.
