Yes, I was talking about willful employment. I absolutely agree that slave-labor camps should be raided and abolished.
Yes, plenty of “choices” are made under extreme duress…the choice to jump out of a burning building comes to mind…yet the decision was made that falling to death is preferable than burning to death. Effectively, closing down a sweatshop is barring the window and insisting everybody burn to death.
FYI, I was a Labor and Industrial Relations major at college…I agree that sweatshops are abhorrent…I also agree with my “Labor Economics” prof when he said 1st-world protests against 3rd-world sweatshops are largely aimed to benefit first-world workers, using third-world workers as pawns. (At least be honest!) Diplomatic pressure comes to mind as a far more effective tool for the job at hand…
“Harm-reduction” is a good motto: if an action (namely, closing sweatshops) tends to reduce harm, it is good…if it doesn’t, it isn’t. Do you know that closing sweatshops produces good (or at least less lousy) outcomes? Do you care?
"Will we be learning anything at all about how the choices that various people have become available?"
That is a very important question that economists can and do look at–but it’s probably more of a “301” course than a “101.” If you want your son to learn that, suggest an Econ major/minor?
Back in the 19th century when slavery came to an end,the Blacks were happy to live on a spread more or less fending for themselves with a little help to get started,but the dogooders that caused a lot of problems, said that wasnt good enough,they had to go from a self suffiecient sustinance existence.to poor competitive,market life,with its stresses and greeds.The poor white farmer was left to His own devices(the Blacks were a lot happier living the life they wanted to live,without the stress and people wanting to take advantage of them, being forced to live the white mans life,it seems the same forces are in place to day(they want to take the contented mans shirt,and force people to live the competitive,stressful,No.1,lifestyle) when I was young we were dirt poor,no anything except(thanks to REA{the capitalistic companies fought the govt on this by the way) a 60 amp service drop(we used 45 amps) I for one was a whole lot happier and didnt like people always looking down their noses at me.So I say leave well enough alone,if everybody lived like we do,the ecosystem would collapse-if you want to help assist in education after you get the growling stomachs sated. One of these days this country will collapse and not be reconizable by the “Boomers” get the population stabized and shrinking.By the way go read the true history of whats occured in economics over the past 250 years,you probaly cant handle the truth,when terms like"eminent domain"“manifest destiny”“kings grants” etc come up you will see how slewed things are and why we need such a mighty military-Kevin
How does Wal-Mart compare to Costco, in terms of employee compensation, insurance coverage for employees, opportunities for advancement, CEO compensation, rate of increase in corporate earnings, etc?
@dagosa Walmart’s English may not be world class, but I enjoy practicing my Spanish at their stores. Both employees and customers have a larger than average percentage of foreigners. They certainly are an equal opportunity employer.
Things I’ve bought at Walmart lately range from pyjamas to windshield washer fluid, to fireplace logs, flashlight batteries, coffee, coffee filters, etc.
@Kevin
I must say, even as a personal rights advocate, with what the ACLU and Libertareans both have to offer at their best, the Monroe Doctrine has been instrumental in preserving our way of life and our personal freedoms. Not allowing sovereign nations from abroad to colonize anywhere without our approval in North America were key ingredients in our WW1 and WW2 success.
So, our government has long circumvented the rights of others in our own best interests. If enough of us feel it right to limit the size of Walmart, so be it. I personally feel the free market can do a better job if we provide the means to them. But, it’s only free when all of it’s citizens feel free to practice their rights of choice. That’s the genesis of my continual rants with things like minimum wage and single payer healthcare. It arms the middle class with the security it needs to say no to the Walmarts when necessary, and yes to them when they do society right. Then, the market is really free and we need fewer govt takeovers, mandates and restrictions.
It was the same deal with Nazi Germany,the average person couldnt say or do anything for fear of that knock on the door in the middle of the night,we are not that bad yet,but with the proper provocation they can haul you away in the middle of the night,we have so many laws its no wonder this free nation has the highest percentage of their population in prison.Skip paying your"assesed" taxses for three years and see what happens,refuse to sell your lot to Wal-mart and see what happens,rally for clean renewable energy and see what happens,the list goes on and on in this “free” country( newsflash Folks-it never was a democracy,its a representive republic,we have the very wealthy representing the interests of the poor people(remember what Leona Hemsley said)-Kevin
Dag, you made an excellent point about language. I think what it comes down to is that I have an ability to analyze and understand things, but a terrible memory for detail. Those that do well in subjects like English and literature seem to have good detail memory, but not necessarily the ability to analyze. They’re simply different strengths and, in my case, weaknesses.
Re: the subject at hand, I think we simply have different perspectives on the same facts. But I will say that it’s great to live in a country where we can debate them. I fear that Kevin may be right, we may be headed down a very bad path right now. When I read of the use of government agencies like the IRS to target people who openly oppose current policies, and see the use of the IRS to force people to buy insurance policies, I fear we’ve gone too far. Hold on for a moment, I hear a knock on the door… who’s there? A government agent? You want me to come with you???
When large retailers like Carrefour, the world’s largest grocery chain, and others like them came to Malaysia, they were able to undercut many of the small local merchants. These merchants got together and petitioned the government to limit the PROFITS and market share of those large chains.
The government was faced with a choice to play the role of limiting competition and scaring away foreign capital, or allowing the market develop by itself. It chose to back off, since a large number of small retailers specificallly did not want business regulated, and the large retailers were all in large shopping malls where the more entrepreneurial small merchants saw an opportiunity for more traffic.
As it stood, we shopped at Carrefour (which has a full aisle dedicated to rice of many kinds) as well as our local Chinese supermarket, which specialized in addressing the needs for exapatriates like us.
It is worth noting that Walmart bombed in Germany, where the shoppers found the merchandize of too low a quality and the greeters annoyed German shoppers who felt they did not need any help in selecting their purchase.
We have 5 Walmarts within a 10 minute drive, but we do most of our shopping at Costco and the local grocery Co-op. These two get 90% of our grocery business.
South Park pretty well covered the Wal Mart issue. WM is us.
Regarding employment at WM, one should ponder the reason behind say 400 job openings at a new WM Supercenter and 8,000 people showing up to apply for those jobs.
I’m sure that the vast majority of those people applying would much rather have a job in a plant that is producing goods and which pays considerably more. Trade policies and sometimes union push closes those plants, so…
Maybe. Maybe not. My dad loved retailing. He loved meeting and helping people. He would have hated working in a factory.
I would argue that the huge number of job seekers applying for the 400 jobs has causes other than WM. I’d also argue that reducing the number of unemployed by 400 is far more beneficial than it is a detriment.
Same
I have found in teaching that those with an ability to analyse can remember detail as well as anyone else. It’s the association with what you do know that is foundation for problem solving. The details you do remember aren’t things that others, except guys like me and the rest of the board, appreciate. Other’s eyes glaze over when we talk about first, second and third class levers while our eyes glaze over when I have to hear about some ones dear pet not liking it’s new knit sweater. My wife doesn’t see herself as a problem solver but let someone have to juggle five different responsibilities at once around her house and her volunteer work, that is problem solving, that is the ability to analyze too. The people on this board all pay attention to detail, all have excellent memories…we just march to the beat of a different drum. In social settings we are often left a little behind when conversations turn to pets and sweaters.
Thanks for the laugh, Dag. The pet comment is a classic.
I think we who enjoy problem solving and those who remember details simply learn differently. And perhaps we also solve problems differently.
I always feel terribly out of place in social settings. Always have.
Yet I can get up in front of a room, even an auditorium, full of people and feel perfectly comfortable discussing complex technologies or complex programs. Others are completely comfortable in social settings but terrified of speaking in front of an audience. I suspect it’s because I don’t understand the dog sweater, but understand the subject of the room or auditorium.
As far as Walmart is concerned, I believe in our personal freedom and like everyone else, don’t want them interferred with by anyone including the govt. but including large corporations as well. The acknowledging things like parental responsibilities and the freedom to practice them are what I mean when I say Walmart has a long way to go to meet the standards of LLBean. It is up to corporations who are granted immunity by corporate laws from individual accountability, who owe it to society in general to give back as much as they take in with this protection, not just in profits, but in the support of personal freedom. Companies like Bean do it, Walmart doesn’t. Like people in this world, there are takers and givers. Walmart is a taker.
Some corps. think profit at all cost is a fitting reason to disregard the rights of individuals who work for them.
Dag, the “rights” of the workers is a whole lengthy discussion of its own, separate from whether the employee is better off having a low paying retail job or no job at all, and from the discussion of the aggressiveness/ altruism of WM’s business philosophies. And I learned to my dismay that only those categories of people chosen to be protected by federal law have the “right” not to be abused. I have no right not to be abused. None whatsoever. A good friend who was one of those chosen protected categories could NOT be abused. Our situations were exactly parallel, the resolutions dramatically different. She and I had many long coffee breaks together and discussed it at length. She agrees that it’s horribly unfair, I agree that she’d have been a fool not to use the law to her advantage. She’s a great lady who got caught up on a bad situation. She had protection. I was a white middle class male who got caught up in exactly the same situation. I had none.
American workers are in an economic decline that began 30+ years ago. The decline cannot be blamed on a single piece of legislation or layed at the doorstep of Walmart or any other cororation. Working Americans are dying the “death from a thousand cuts.” And Walmart wants to get its share of the blood while the vast majority of Americans are walking wounded who are too apathetic or too uninformed or too gullible to recognize or realize their plight.
I watched the OWS’s grandstanding and realized they were a “Rabbel without a cause,” whose members have wasted a great deal of their time and energy bringing attention to their lack of mission. The image of the young girl in a ballet pose on the Wall St bull is their greatest accomplishment.
@TSMB: The Civil Rights Act of '64 prohibits dscrimination in eployment on the basis of “race, color, religion, sex or national origin.” as you no doubt have a race, color, reiligion…of your own, you ARE afforded CRA '64 protection. And, as CRA '64 encompasses only those job actions based on race (et al), your female co-worker only has CRA '64 protection if the basis of the action was in re: one of these protected areas.
Other than CRA '64, and similar legislation like age discrimination or veteran’s discrimination, employment is “at will”: you can be fired for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. At-will employment is (IMO) why unionism is still relevant…about every contract requires cause for termination.
The very first day I started at the dealership, I had to literally sign away my rights
I had no right to sue the place
Litigation was my only option
I was not allowed to talk about unions, let alone join one
I could get fired at any time, without a reason
Later on, we were instructed to perform complimentary inspections, for which we didn’t get paid. The goal was to drum up business. Somebody rightfully pointed out that it wasn’t legal to force somebody to work without being compensated.
Some people complained about these things. A meeting was called. We were told to pipe down, because we could all be easily replaced, by someone willing to work for less money. That was the end of it. Nobody ever opened their mouth again.
While I didn’t agree with many of the unkind labor practices, I realized it’s better to be miserable and employed, versus keeping your pride and being unemployed
I am no fan of Walmart and will never set foot in one of their stores
But desperate times call for desperate measures. If Walmart is the only employer, and somebody desperately needs a job, so that they can pay the bills . . .
@db4690
The situation you give would certainly stifle the productivity of anyone working there. No one could or would want to work to their full capabilities in that situation. This stuff goes on in many businesses including independent auto service departments regularly, perhaps to a lesser degree, but it still goes on. That is the genesis of the comment I made about cig .
I’ll say this . . . while I was working at that place, I was constantly aware that I essentially had no rights, and could be sent packing at a moment’s notice
The only consolation I had was knowing that there were millions of other workers who were in very similar situations
The funny things is this . . . I feel I’m better at my job now, because as a civil service mechanic, there isn’t anybody constantly looking over my shoulder, telling me how worthless I am and that he can fire me at any time. Not having that to worry about lets me fully concentrate on fixing vehicles, versus fixing vehicles, while at the same time bending over backwards or getting on your hands and knees to kiss somebody’s ass, just so that he won’t fire you, simply because he’s in a bad mood after sleeping on the couch the night before
