I wouldn’t get too upset. Its quite clear some folks have a particular political bend here and that’s ok. Some of us are pretty stupid Americans but we are still free. I’m half German and half Norwegian and I actually feel more comfortable in Germany than Norway for some reason.
Now two points. Dealers and repair shops are in the business to sell services, parts, etc. If I walked into a shoe store, would I not expect them to try to sell socks along with the shoes? I have no problem with a gentle attempt to upsell. I took my car in for free tire balancing and ended up a couple of control arms/ball joints for $600. No problem, glad they checked it. Yeah I could have done it cheaper but forget it. I don’t mind at all. All I have to do is say no or I’ll think about it.
Secondly, I have replaced batteries after one year, three years, four years and more. I think anything older than three years needs to be watched. If you pay $100 for a battery and expect five years, thats $20 a year. If you replace it prematurely at three years, you lost $40. What is it really worth to push your luck on a battery? Especially if its 10 below out and 10:00 at night? Battery failures are rarely convenient. So rather than trying to stretch it and save $40 over five years, I’d just replace it and not worry about it.
The advice is free. Minimum charge around here for a tow truck is $75.
I have to respectfully disagree that the Europeans were behind the curve. They were using fuel injection, ECMs, O2 sensors, and so on years and even decades before the Americans and Japanese bought in.
As to Mechaniker’s comments I do agree there is a bit of smugness there but I’m not upset in the least over that. I do consider sauerkraut an evil Nazi plot though…
The U.S. is the same country that provides one lame lawsuit after the other, a running joke for a government, the Kardashians, and Honey Boo-Boo. No reason for the world to develop a bad impression over that…
For what it’s worth anyway, I’m mostly of Scotch and German descent with some Native American or Indian for the non-politically correct.
The point could be made that due to the Indian ancestry part of me is about as American as it gets and that part of me is not offended. There’s bigger things to worry about.
@"the same mountainbike" I know for a fact that no line can be drawn defining the boundaries between an acceptable, easily found upsell and “testing” looking for more work. I think the idea of using equipment or not isn’t a real valid issue. The most expensive resource a shop has is labor time, once today’s 8 hours are gone they’re gone for good and there’s no getting them back. It takes more time to check and air up 4 tires than it does to test a battery. So from my point of view checking tires is a more valuable service than testing batteries.
But the bigger point is a shop–whether a top line dealer or a small corner garage–can’t be all things to all customers. I have people who resent being asked if they’d like to replace those shredded wiper blades. I also have people who can’t be bothered to make decisions about their car and expect me to maintain the car as I see fit and they pay the bill no questions asked. It’s incredibly difficult to tailor your shop methods to fit the differing needs of every one who walks in the door.
Some places offer a prime rib dinner when all a guy is looking for is a ham sandwich.
BTW, thanks for the heartburn advice. I’m not particularly fond of medications to fix something that can be remedied by common sense and moderation. Beer and homemade pizza followed by half a dozen gin and tonics and a big cigar, shoulda just eaten and drank a little less. Ha!
If you live in the South then 2-5 years is about average for car battery life. Here in the North - 7-10 is average. Heat is the destroyer of batteries. Cold shows you how weak a battery is…but keeps it lasting longer.
I had to go back and read mechaniker’s post as I originally gave up less than half way. Leave it to Germans to turn lead acid batteries into rocket science. To much information for me even though I’m part German.
ASE, you make a good case. Clearly we’re approaching the question from different perspectives. If I understand correctly, you don’t want to return a car to a customer that’s unserviceable. I don’t want a shop going beyond the bounds of the work I authorize. There exists a wide swath of “middle ground” there, and it would appear that we’re biased toward leaning in different directions in that “middle ground”.
I agree about the drugs. Before I started dealing with degenerative disease in my mid/late-forties, I never even took an aspirin. These days I just accept the fact that I need the help of the drugs. I had to use Nexium because long term NSAID use to control pain resulted in holes in my stomach lining (ulcers). Nexium along with changes in diet were necessary to let the ulcers heal. It helped too that I had to move to stronger drugs to control the pain and inflammation.
Leave it to Germans to turn lead acid batteries into rocket science. To much information for me even though I’m part German.
Yeah? Wait until you have to replace a battery in a late-model German car. In addition to reinitializing all the power window/sunroof functions, resetting the steering sensor, and info-tainment systems, any time the battery is replaced you’ll need to perform a battery registration procedure with the car. You’ll need to program the type, size, age, and capacity of the battery to the car so the charging system can function properly. The cars have different charging parameters for an aging battery than a new one. Install a new battery without telling the car and it may cook your new battery because it’s trying to jam amps into it as if it were the old half-dead one.
@"the same mountainbike" It’s not really what I want, it’s what the customer wants. That’s the hard part to figure out. Testing and checking is just gathering information to present to the driver so they can make a decision. Some will want to use the battery until it fails them and others will want to replace it proactively.
I count myself as damn lucky to not have any chronic pain or injuries. I have a somewhat physical job and I fear that one day it may catch up to me, but I am surprised that I wake up without aches and pains and can still crawl under a dash or bend over a hood. I’ve seen how exhausting and debilitating chronic pain can be and I have a lot of respect for people who can manage it without going off the deep end.
I had to attend a 2 day long VW electrical school one time. An entire morning (4 hours less a 15 minute break) was spent on lectures as to how a battery works. Who knew…
“You’ll need to program the type, size, age, and capacity of the battery to the car so the charging system can function properly. The cars have different charging parameters for an aging battery than a new one. Install a new battery without telling the car and it may cook your new battery because it’s trying to jam amps into it as if it were the old half-dead one”. @asemaster–Is there some good reason for this electrical system in the German cars? When it is “battery time”, I like to go to the local WalMart or farm store, buy the right battery for the car, install the battery and be done with it. I do have a device that I plug into a power outlet on the car to maintain the radio and computer settings. However, one time I forgot to switch the key on which makes the power outlet hot when cleaning the terminals on my 2011 Sienna and the only bad effect was that I had to reset the clock. The radio settings including the Bluetooth and the programming for the garage door opener were maintained. I don’t think I would want the system on the German cars unless there is some very good reason for it.
I test the batteries on our vehicles in a very simple way–I hold the probes of my voltmeter across the battery terminals and note the reading. I then have my wife operated the starter and look at the voltage drop. If the reading is about 12.6 or above and the voltage doesn’t drop below 10.5 or so while cranking the engine, I leave the battery alone. If the battery shows a big drop in voltage, I replace it.
The theory is that 3-4 year old marginal batteries and brand new ones have different charging requirements
Why charge a brand new battery as if it were on death’s door?
An old battery will require more from the alternator
The idea is that the battery and charging system work optimally, no undercharging or overcharging. No reason for the alternator to work full power if the battery is fresh
While I may be wrong, I believe that . . . theoretically . . . batteries are supposed to last longer with these smart systems
I agree w/ @Nevada_545 that an about to fail battery, or a good battery but connections in the circuit with unusually high voltage drop, either may contribute to earlier than normal starter selenoid contact failure. I’m pretty sure I’ve experience the later myself on my Corolla.
@asemaster asks
Did you ask your co-worker why the heck he didn't replace the alternator in the safety, comfort, and convenience of his own garage rather than drive the thing until it quit somewhere?
No, didn’t ask. Didn’t seem like it was any of my business. How I found out about it, I saw his car off the side of the freeway while I was on my way home after work. I stopped to ask if he needed any help. He said “no, I’m all set”, and opened the trunk and showed me the new alternator, a box filled with the tools he needed to do the job, a set of mechanics overalls to cover his business suit, and a big canvas tarp. Why didn’t he just do it at home? I presume either he was just saving money by keeping the old alternator until the last second, or he didn’t have time to do the job at home straight away, planning to do it later, so put all that stuff in his trunk as insurance in case the old alternator kicked the bucket while on the road. Which it did.
“Wait until you have to replace a battery in a late-model German car”
Recently, I had my battery replaced at Auto Zone. Normally, I would do it myself, but I was pressed for time, and driving 12 miles Costco, waiting on line to pay for it, then driving back home with the new battery, and then doing the installation would have taken a lot more time than it took to drive 6 miles to Auto Zone and have them do it. Auto Zone had me in and out in 20 minutes total. Yes, it cost a bit more, but my time is worth something also.
Anyway… in the course of my conversation with the manager as he was doing the battery installation, he mentioned that AZ’s corporate policy is that they are not to do battery installations in any late-model Mercedes or BMW models. He stated that, in addition to the re-initializing of various accessories that the customer may not be capable of doing, the programming necessary for these cars to “accept” a new battery is so complex that corporate would rather lose the money on some battery sales, rather than get involved in that kettle of fish.
Thankfully, I have a garden-variety Japanese car, so nothing needed to be re-initialized and nothing had to be done for installation other than connecting the terminals correctly and tightening the hold-down.
@jtsanders
Your criteria is LESS stringent then mine. If during the 10 years I owned the last battery in my 4Runner, it turned over slowly but still started, depending on the temperature, it would have been replaced. There are cars out there, 4Runner being one of them, that are especially good cold start vehicles. Their initial engineering has much to do with their ease of starting when a battery begins to loose it’s CCAs. That’s why I still say, it has as much to do with the car/ battery combination as the battery alone, regardless of the number of CCA left in the battery. Or course, the battery was a Panasonic which is another debate all together. I just purchased a new 2015 Tacoma and made sure it had a similar motor as the 4Runner. Couldn’t afford a new 4Runner.
Let me say that I had the battery tested by the dealer the last year I owned the car and a local garage as well on separate occasions but less then a week apart. The dealer told me it was serviceable even though it had dropped, I could run it for a while longer (possible a year or more) while the garage advised me to get a new battery ( theirs) ASAP.
@db4690
I agree with your assessment. If you are not prepared, perhaps you should change the battery regularly. But I am comfortable in my ability to jump start mine. I cannot remember buying a new battery in the last 6 cars and trucks I have owned. Their age when traded were all between 8 and 10 years and none had failed. IMHO, it may have to do with the batteries as OEM as anything.
Btw, whether the battery is new or not, you can never be sure it will not fail. Just like tires, it’s always worthwhile to at least have access to a spare battery or a AAA card or both.
@Triedaq I don’t build 'em, I just fix 'em. Or try to. But our resident Mercedes expert @db4690 has already explained it. Also, the car may have come with an Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) battery instead of a conventional lead-acid battery, or vice-versa. AGMs are more prone to damage from overcharging. So the car needs to know the age, type, and rating of battery to properly direct the alternator output.
But your method of testing is the old tried and true load test. I have seen the handheld testers declare a battery fine when it was obviously bad. In my opinion the best way to test a battery is to apply a load and using an amp meter and volt meter determine if it is good or not.
@db4690 and @asemaster–Thank you for answering my question as to why one would have to why one would have to reprogram the system on certain German cars.
" I don’t build 'em, I just fix 'em". You are one up on me–I don’t even try to fix them any more. I worry about messing something up. I suppose it makes a little bit of sense to program the car for the type of battery. When I had the tires replaced on my Sienna, the tire dealer had to program the car to accept the new tires so that the low pressure warning light wouldn’t go on.
With the horror stories about how the threads in the head can be stripped on an aluminum block when changing spark plugs, I don’t change the spark plugs myself anymore. However, the spark plugs don’t have to be changed every 10,000 miles. I suppose if the AGM batteries last 10 years, maybe reprogramming the car to accept the battery isn’t a big deal for the average motorist.
