New Subaru radios weaker than old?

General Discussion
41

@MikeInNH

Most speaker manufacturers get locked up in producing acurate sound at one meter in chamber designed to prevent reflections. The world out side is filled with reflections and there is more to sound reproduction then on axes accuracy. Most Bose speakers cannot compete with the mid fi competition in that area, while most of the mid fi competition cannot compete with Bose in accuracy throughout the living environment. Try it yourself with a frequency test CD and a sound pressure meter. You don’t have to believe me, do it yourself. The equipment is cheap. Off axis high frequency is often obsorb and becomes a non factor in reflected sound…there is the reason for your, “no highs” using paper cone tweeters by Bose for example.

Head to head test a Bose 301 vs a comparable Klipsch or Polk off axis, as far out as 180 degrees. While the accuarcy is better in a narrow beam, through out the rest of the room, the Bose more often will excel. This off axes sound is then reflected producing more accurate sound throughout the listening environment. Another thing that is for sure is that Polk and the comparibly priced brands produce more listening fatique with their extended range transducers trying to generate enough high frequency dispersion using shear volume. Bose speakers try to generate dispersion by using multiply arrays at lower volume.

So, if you sit in an easy chair, don’t move and don’t mind getting a headache, regular speakers work and will give you more accurate sound. If you get up and move around, over time, you will find Bose speakers more listenable over longer periods of time and in a greater number of positions in the listening area without generating anywhere near the listening fatigue.

A freind and I have built dozens of speakers over the years using computer assisted programming which match componets, crossovers and cabinets. We even built our own crossovers. My son worked in several electronics stores and we had a chance to measure off axis response of many speaker brands after hours. Bose consistenly does better then most throughout . There was one brand that at one time, the Allison line of speakers and a few Bose knock offs that were actually better. But here, better marketing won out. So head to head, in an easy chair, other speakers will sound more accurate…but many people don’t live that way.

We have a Bose lifestyle 48 system up stairs where everyone moves around. We have a home theater down where everyone sits. No Bose down…just AR, Klipsch, in walls and three Velodyne subs to crack the plaster. The work out area has Bose. The sewing room where my wife sits and works, we have a regular BIC dual VC single speaker aimed at the sewing area, making a great public radio listening and background music listening speaker.

You buy and use what works best.

42

A few years ago I bought a desk Digital/FM/AM capable radio. It was terrible. The thing was supposed receive the digital signal rather than the analog FM signal. However it kept dropping the carrier signal. I threw away that radio and went back to standard FM.

Try another car and compare. I’d complain.

43

Guess you have never head of satillite radio or local digital TV transmission with it’s superior sound run through a home reciever. Huge difference when you have a cheap digital radio without the error correction necessary to deal with dropouts. Digital reception is not a real time event. It receives and corrects signals well in advance of it being sent out using interpolation. How far in advance it does this and how well it does it depends upon different factors, one being the quality of the receiver. They also filter out the extranious “noise” you get with all analog transmission…this makes a huge difference in the way you precieved sound quality.
http://www.alpha-ii.com/Info/AudioInt.html

44

@MikeInNh

Getting back to Bose. 99.9 % of all professional sound equipment makers, like Bose use things like paper drivers and lots of EQ. Barbara Strisand among other will not use professional equipment that does not use this older technology for live performances. So companies like JBL who like Bose, use the same approach in professional speaker application other then for dispersion. When JBL makes or made home speakers, they use the hype of fancy sounding speaker construction to give you the illusion you needed more then you do. Only in their very high end speakers can you get away with materials other then the basics when you apply the more sophisticated means to filter out extraneous overtones.

This hype is alive and well and Bose does not buy into hype for mid fi sound. Accuracy is 50% dependent on the environment and most mi fi companies work through it with hype. Bose has tried with some success and yes, marketing to make money. What none of them tell you is, for the mid fi crowd, like you and me, you can make your own stuff that sounds better over time for half the price.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/bas/0508/ Interesting article on all that goes into decent sound…it can be very subjective as no one hears the same way.

45

When you get older and have a 40dB loss over 4k, what difference does the tweeter array have anyway?

46

@dagosa

I’ve done a some extensive listening to Bose 901’s and 301’s. Friend of mine had the 901’…and my sister owns a pair of 301’s.

While you think that reflection is GOOD…I think it is one of things that really HURT Bose. My friend who had 901’s…he had them in his living room…They sounded very very good. But then he moved them to a dedicated listening room…and they sounded AWFUL. We spent HOURS trying to get them to sound correctly. My friend was convinced he messed something up when he moved them…when it turned out that it was the speakers. You don’t build a house/room and put the Bose speakers in it…you put the Bose speakers in the middle of field and design/build the house/room around it. That’s the ONLY way to get the best sound possible.

As for professional speakers…While Bose does have a professional speaker line…Bose probably has less then 1% of the market.

If you know of JBL then you know of Altec/Lansing. My speakers rebuilt Model-15’s. New updated CD horn and a rebuilt crossover in new cabinets. My rear speakers I designed and built. We probably used the same cad speaker cabinet design software. I used an existing cross-over…again all Altec/Lansing components. My center channel is Klipsch.

And again…one of the big problems with Bose is low deep base and highs. Try listening to Classical music on the Bose…you’ll wonder what those weird instruments are being played. They just don’t produce the sound as accurately as other speakers. Theil speakers are about the same price as Bose and blow them away in overall sound.

AR speakers…they stopped be real good when Henry Kloss left them some 30 years ago. Klipsch higher-end speakers (LaScala’s)…Bose doesn’t even make a comparable speaker.

47

@MikeInNH
when they were in his living room they sounded good but when they were in a dedicated listening room they sounded awful ?

I guess, if I’m not mistaken, you made my point EXACTLY ! Listening rooms minimize reflections which for beaming speakers, that is exactly the listening environment they need to “show off their accuracy” but only in their sweet spot. Bose will do poorly without reflected sound, especially the 901s. Their measured off axis accuracy will actually be better but they will sound flat and dull…a sound pressure meter will tell all ! But, Ordinary living rooms are fraught with reflecting surfaces. Actually, 901s have extraordinary low bass response given the right positioning…and Bose speakers sound much more full in this environment.

Even the very best of speakers like Magneplanar and others are suseptable to reflective distortion. When this happens, what seems like an advantage, wide frequency response, turns into a disadvantage. Bose deliberately minimizes standing wave distortion by offering minimal very low base response and listening fatigue by minimizing high volume high frequency reflection. Do they have limited range ? For sure, but guess what, live amplifide performances that aren’t completely acoustic and in very intimate settings are to. They use the same techniques to limit listening fatigue.

So…in artificial situations or acoustically prepared rooms that the wealthy can enjoy, yes high accuacy from beamy speakers work very well. In normal listening environments, exactly as you have observed (and why Bose always insists you audition them in your home, not an artificial listening environment) Bose has a distinct advantage over other traditional mid fi speakers. Accuracy is always room dependent as at least 50% is the responsibility of a speaker’s environment.

Notice I always compare them to mid fi and not the esoteric designs that are well out of reach of wife controlled purse strings.

I completely agree that given you stay in a sweet spot, most traditional speakers can sound more accurate. But, as you have observed, in the real world over time Bose takes a different approach. So there is nothing for us to disagree about in our own observations. You are right on. And as you have observed, the room is responsible for generating MOST of the bass, not the speaker. Klipschorn is famous for that.

Btw, I used to love the Burhoe and Allison speakers which on some of their models use reflective sound wonderfully.

48

Back to the Subie’s substandard stereo…anything to report @TimM ?

49
Even the very best of speakers like Magneplanar and others are suseptable to reflective distortion

I wouldn’t consider Magnapan the BEST speakers. They produce EXCELLENT sound above 1000hz and below 15khz…They have very poor base. Planer speakers are very accurate…but they lack true high-end and low end. Ever listen to a Violin on a Magnapan??? Not very nice.

I guess, if I'm not mistaken, you made my point EXACTLY !

Not really. You seem to think that reflection will ENHANCE the music experience…Sorry I don’t think so. You also seem to think that all speakers NOT like Bose Beam…Sorry but that’s not true either. There are some MAJOR problems to overcome with reflecting speakers. One is time-align. Not having the sound time-aligned when it reaches your ear can really make the music sound. AWFUL - which is the case with 901’s NOT being in the proper room. I can move my speakers from room to room without effecting the sound too much. And my speakers with their new horns have extremely nice very very wide sweat spot. The off-axis sweet spot is over 10’ wide.

50

On the Bose front - they take a reasonable idea (reflection is important) and try to apply it where it doesn’t alway work, the home. The timing and distances for reflected sounds in a concert hall are much different than in a home.

Planar speakers don’t rely nearly as much on reflection at higher frequencies, where planar waves rule. AIMING the speakers, and being in the ‘sweet spot’, is much more important for them. The difference between a planar source (Magnaplanar) and a point source (typical small tweeter)…

51

@texases
I agree. But we fail to realize the obvious.that accurate sound that includes all frequencies generated at somewhat the same volume is particularly capable of causing hearing fatigue. Getting hung up on speaker accuracy alone (which CR who tests speakers say most Bose models are at least average top one third) is only half the listening experience.

Every speaker has it’s own signature that it imparts on the sound regardless of how accurate it is. I guess @MikeInNH you didn’t read my entire post, though I can’t really blame you. A short term listening experience with highly accurate speakers can be a very enjoyable experience. This is especially true in movies and limited music listening. Home speakers, even if they had the power handling capacity should not be used in professional applications because of the potential listening fatigue they are capable of.

Minimal use of crossovers, controlled reflection over a narrow frequency range and lots of EQ are the similar strategies used in my powered PA speakers I use for long term use in dance classes, my friend 's band equipment that I frequently borrow and use and all other’s I come into contact in the music business. When people expect a listening experience in their home, similar to what 99% of those who go to concerts and dance halls, discos and bars experience, you first must use a complimentary approach. (please don’t imply I mean the same)

Bose 901s are a dedicated speaker specifically designed with reflected sound in mind at a time when home theater was not in use in the average home. It’s unfair to use them as a comparison model for the approach used by Bose today. As long as they sell, they keep making them.

52

I get a kick out of the “no highs, no lows it must be Bose” mantra when you KNOW, it could apply to ANY speaker off axis with too high a crossover point and in the wrong environment. The difference is, the guy making the statement will just go out and buy a subwoofer and sit in only one place to listen to his beloved Polks so he can brag about them over any other and claim his actually has highs and lows on it’s own accord.

@MikInNh
"You seem to think that reflection will ENHANCE the music experience…Sorry I don’t think so. You also seem to think that all speakers NOT like Bose Beam…"

SORRY TO SAY, IT (reflecting surfaces) CAN ENHANCE BASS, dramatically if done correctly !
ALL speakers beam to some extent except for 360 degree radiators and there is sound reflection in ALL environments found in the average home. The idea is to work with and not against them. A speaker in a totally non reflective environment sounds poor indeed. ALL speakers have an “approach to dealing with it”.

53
SORRY TO SAY, IT (reflecting surfaces) CAN ENHANCE BASS

Making MORE base or LOWER base does NOT make the sound better. Especially the way Bose does it. It is amazing how they can get a 100hz note from a 4" speaker. But the base is still NOT that good…Especially since it’s reflected so many times before the note finally reaches your ear (which is a few milliseconds after the 15khz note reached your ear…And I’ve yet to hear the Bose speaker that gets down to 40-60hz range. They have decent mid-base…but not much below 80hz. My home speakers are very flat down to 50hz…and then start to drop off a little to 40hz then drop way off…A good 15 or 16" sub-woofer is good down to 30hz…very few are effective down to 20hz…Valodyne makes a very nice Sub-woofer…Best I heard was a custom made Altec using their 515B speaker.

54

how about THIS speaker? :stuck_out_tongue:

55

Mike
Bass is so room dependent that most smaller speakers need a subwoofer to gain some semblence of control. The size of a driver can contribute to efficiency in bass reproductions but saying the bass you can get from 15 to 16 inch driver is necessary and or flatter is incorrect in my experience… We made a dozen subwoofers and our computer programs allowed us to tune the system by using proper box dimensions and porting to get substantial bass out of a 10 or twelve inch driver. In one system, we tuned the system very close to 20 hertz using an acoustic suspension box and very flat from 80hz down which was our selected crossover point. Unfortunately, it didn’t pass the WF (wife factor) …it weighed in at 120 lbs. as she got tired of that big a coffe table.

The driver was an Eminence, which is a good buy but not particularly high end. The bottom line is…ANYONE with a little time and effort and not much money can get very good bass response, themselves. I still tune my own passive subs to my rooms and they produce as good frequency response as my 12inch 250 watt Velodynes which i use by convenience in the home thearter area. It’s not rocket science. We USE reflected sound and must be retuned EVERYTIME you move it as reflections matter. The ROOM is the speaker box for all speakers and there are reflection both in and outside the box. You either tune the reflections inside to the outside for efficiency or dampen them out with acoustic suspention designs.

By using the EQ in the system and a CD frequency generator and sound pressure meter, I located the sub ( really a bass radiator) of the Bose LS 48 up stairs with just two 6 inch drivers to deliver bass to 30 Hz down less then 3 db. So driver size is a hoax. When properly place, we got a friends 901 s to make substantial bass to less then 30 Hz easily, and as flat as any of the better of today’s subs…it has 4 inch drivers. Driver size is only as important as the maker wants to make them to increase the hype…

56

Not to get caught up in this Bose or bass debate but I do miss my Altec A7 VOTTs. Ran them with 3 watts of single ended tube power and if you weren’t prudent with the volume knob you could deafen someone . Oh and Bose doesn’t make subwoofers they make bass modules which if you listen closely enough are crossed over so high you can hear voices from the module . Even good design can’t overcome the laws of physics . If you need to move air a large cone is always better everything else being equal

57

Can you achieve sound below the 60hz with a small speaker?? That’s very debatable. While there may be sound…I’ll do blind tests on how well those small speakers do against a good quality 12" or 15" driver any day of the week. I know what the outcome will be…I’ve done this experiment more then once. And the outcome was overwhelmingly on the side of the larger speaker cone.

I’m NOT saying a system like Bose is BAD…just that I think a good 12", 15" or 16" sound a LOT better. And you don’t have to EQ it to get it very flat. For home use in a medium size room Bose will probably do fine for most people…But for larger rooms not so well…especially at high volume levels.

Speakers I built are Base Reflex with a tuned port…Acoustic Suspension speakers tend to be very inefficient. I also like the sound a good tube amp (300B is my favorite). Try to run a Bose speaker with only 12 watts in a 14’x24’ room. Not going to happen.

Base is omnidirectional. But it DOESN’T NEED reflecting sound to have good low base. That can be proven by going to an open air concert.

When you have wave lengths 10 times the size of the speaker cone the speaker starts distorting. While Bose has done great things with small speakers…I’ll take a larger cone speaker any time.

BTW…when my daughter was an undergraduate at MIT she attended a couple of Lectures by Dr Bose. I’ve personally met Vanu Bose (Dr Bose son) several times. His company is very much in line with the company I work for.

58

Good debate @Mike
Just a couple of things. First, that’s very interesting that your daughter heard Bose speak. That’s great.

Just about any speaker of almost any size can produce very low bass notes. Headphones are proof of that. The trick is to get smaller ones to produce them with enough volume to be effective. High excursion which requires a very large magnet structur to dampen unwanted frequencies and still introduces Doppler distortion while trying to reproduce higher frequencies as well make this method an expensive proposition. You can tune the box with a driver that has a resonance frequency in the range you want to enhance. A resonance frequency is that frequency a driver "wants to reproduce on it 's own if that makes any sense. This requires strict parameters during construction but nothing than any one with a computer can’t handle.

But, have doubts if you will, I did just tell you we tested examples of speakers with very small drivers, in the 4 to 6 to 8 to 10 inch range that produce very low frequencies cleanly and effectively. Transmission lines have allowed 6 inch drivers to easily produce lower frequencies louder then you would expect. That’s not me talking. Anyone can google these facts and 4 inch in 901s can do it. Bigger is hype ! Driver material is hype ! Cabinets and environment are equally if not MORE important.

Btw, acoustic suspension speakers are not necessarily inefficient. That is another misconception. Acoustic suspension in a small box is inefficient. A large acoustic suspension speaker with a driver with good dampening qualities can be as efficient as some tuned ports…they just cost more and high end speakers often do this. And what makes a tuned port efficient in a smaller box ? It’s tunning the reflected back wave out throgh the port to enhance the front wave…it uses the REFLECTED sound. What most people don’t get, and what I feel I must repeat is, the room is part of our speaker system and is just as important as the box and the driver. If anyone doesn’t get that, they will continually be caught in the hype of good speaker vs bad speaker instead of realizing that "asking the best speaker to perform well in an unsuitable environment is like driving a sports car on ice and expecting it to handle well "

Yes, you can get bass at an open air concert, but to produce it at the olume required you need goobs of power. With out the advantages of reflecting surfaces which can easily double or triple bass levels, you have to make up for it with wattage, lots of it. Bigger is NOT better…bigger is just…,bigger and a big driver in an appropriate box is totally inefficient bass producer…

59

“What most people don’t get, and what I feel I must repeat is, the room is part of our speaker system and is just as important as the box and the driver”.
@dagosa–You make a good point. Back in the mid 1950s, plans appeared in a now defunct publication called “Popular Electronics” for a speaker box that could be built for $3 from celotex. The box was designed to go into the corner of the room and the design made the corner of the room part of the speaker system. The design did use the back wave from the speaker to enhance the sound wave coming from the front. I built this $3 speaker enclosure and installed a 12" speaker (there had been earlier plans for a $2 speaker box for an 8" speaker). I think I paid about $20 for the speaker. I paid about the same for a used Eico amplifier and pre-amplifier. For the price, the sound was really pretty good.

60
Yes, you can get bass at an open air concert, but to produce it at the olume required you need goobs of power.

Or very efficient speakers…JBL or Altec horn loaded cabinets and hf horns are very very efficient. In the range of 110db efficiency.

As for acoustic suspension speakers being efficient…They can be made MORE efficient…but usually not in the range of a good base reflex or horn loaded speaker…Mine are in the range of 96db’s…Speaker like the Altec Model-19’s is over 100db’s. Never seen a Acoustic Suspension speaker close to that range…usually in the high 80’s or low 90’s range. Acoustic Suspension speakers have an advantage of easier control the base. Base reflex is a lot tougher. But thanks to Thiele/Small it’s a lot easier to do.

I never said that room didn’t have an effect on a speaker…It’s just that it’s too difficult to control and the effects are NOT ALWAYS GOOD. In fact they can be very very bad. And because the Bose speakers are SO ROOM DEPENDENT…it can be very difficult to make them sound good in certain rooms. There are very very few rooms you can put my speakers in that they’ll sound bad…From my experience with Bose speakers…it’s close to 60/40 chance.

Deep base with smaller speakers…Yes it’s the volume…compared to room size. I think I said that. And since your ear canal is very very small…head-phones can produce excellent base. So for small speakers can produce high volumes of air for the lower base…they have to have long throw drivers. That’s very difficult to get under control. And I’ve yet to hear a small speaker do it right…And I challenge you to do a blind test.

Most people I know who have smaller speakers…also have a sub-woofer. The small speakers were really lacking base.

One last point…is recording studios. Playback speakers used in recording studios want very accurate speakers with excellent highs and deep deep lows. You’ll be pressed to find Bose in any recording studios. JBL/Urei and Altec have been the de facto standard in recording studios for over 50 years. B&W 800 series is the most used in Europe. The design of playback speakers is to play the music as it was meant to be heard. You can only do that with good accurate speakers.