As I mentioned earlier my Altec A7 were called voice of the theatres because of theses were what was commonly found in movie theatres of the 50s. Incredibly efficient ( over 110db) and they needed to be given the relative lack of amplifier power available back then. But doing the math 4 watts would create 116dB of room filling sound. There are a few web pages dedicated to explaining the hype that is Bose. No high end audio store goes anywhere near Bose and neither do any serious audiophile publications. Bose didn’t invent the direct reflecting technology they love to brag about but they certainly patented it and sue the hell out of anyone with the gall to denigrate their rather mediocre products. I wouldn’t be so hard on Bose if they didn’t overprice their products. $400 clock radios and $2000 5.1 setups that don’t even include a real subwoofer are quite frankly a joke. Like P.T.Barnum always said, there’s a sucker born every minute.
Your JBLs concert speakers, not home, are very efficient for your open air concerts…but not for true low bass. At most distances found in open air venues, low bass is near impossible to reproduce by any speaker. The roll off is substantial to a point it becomes inauditable. Only the reflected sound reinforcement of an indoor enclosure can accomplish this. The bass produced in out door concerts is an illusion, one that emphasises volume over substance. To this end, Concert speakers have totally different design parameters then home speakers. Low bass can only be reproduced to acceptable volumes if the amphitheater is designed specifically for it and the audience sits within the strict confines of it’s influence. The only difference being from inside, is you get wet when it rains. If you want the distinct reproduction of the low notes of a pipe organ in a church…you first build the church.
None of you have talked about listening fatigue which is the prime point of all my discussions . Accuracy over time induces listening fatigue in most people with demanding material. Professional musician speakers speakers are NOT the most accurate but are highly manipulative and yet restrictive in frequency range with that in mind.
And without that in mind, none of what I have said seems to make sense to you in understanding there is a place for Bose speakers and it has nothing to do with your superior minds feeling that because they cost more then you think they should being made in Mexico, they are some how inferior in concept because of their different approach then your Chinese made Plolks or. whatever. The military gets it when they order sound equipment like headphones and speakers that personell must wear for extended periods…it seems most self professed audiophiles, duped into thinking absolute accuracy while sitting on their duffs in one spot determines speaker quality and is all that matters.There is a place for each…workout room and upstairs eating area, yes…home theater, no.
Being over priced is an attribute of nearly all consumer goods…it’s called the right of capitalism. So Bose are not the most accurate speaker when measured from one place in ones listening room. They are pretty much middle of the road as CR and others have measured. But, when measured throughout the listening area, they tend to have a greater average degree of accuracy within a range of acceptale sound reproduction that does not induce as much listening fatigue. All, within the competitive price range that most are willing to pay. It’s that simple and snobs don’t seem to get it.
Btw, a true audiophile is not one necessarily who can recite statistics and name brands of speakers, but one who can walk into a room and tell you whether or not it has the potential for producing satsfying sound reproduction.
The radio described in this post is (or “sounds like”) the top of the Subaru line, based on the radio in my wife’s new car. I have been noticing poor reception during the day, but better reception at night-a common radio occurrence. Looks like Subaru went with glitz rather than performance.
Your JBLs concert speakers, not home, are very efficient for your open air concerts...but not for true low bass. At most distances found in open air venues, low bass is near impossible to reproduce by any speaker.
I take it you’ve never been to an open air concert…At least not up close.,… Sure 200’ away from the band you won’t hear much low-end base. I’ve been to concerts 20’ away…and the low base was making my teeth rattle.
None of you have talked about listening fatigue which is the prime point of all my discussions
All I can say is you’ve read the magazines…but never truly experienced it. Sure there are some (actually many) high-efficiency speakers that may cause listening fatigue. Most of them like the JBL 4341’s purposely extend the highs. And they can be very fatiguing to listen to. But that doesn’t mean they all are. You should sit down and listen to some of them. Two of the most influential speakers ever made are the Altec A7 and the Altec 604. The two are either rated #1 or #2 as the most influential audio equipment for the past 85 years. They are both very efficient speakers…and they are both highly regarded musically. I suggest you take a listen to them. There’s a reason why musicians like Paul McCartney and Quincy Jones have Altec 604’s as their main listening speakers in their homes. The 604’s is my next speaker build project.
Btw, a true audiophile is not one necessarily who can recite statistics and name brands of speakers
A true audiophile doesn’t just read magazines and close their minds because this magazine or that magazine said high efficient speakers are fatiguing. Those people never truly listened to good high-efficient speakers like the A7’s or 604’s. Many years ago when working for DEC…we had an audiophile group. And more then once we conducted blind tests for people to display their equipment. Some people brought in some of the most highly regarded speakers by the magazines at the time (Magnapan, Apogee, Martin Logan…- some were highly paid “SINGLE” engineers who had nothing else to spend their money on). Not ONCE did any of those so-called high-end speakers come out on top.
Put down the magazines and open your ears. I’ve listened to many different types of speakers…High-efficient, Horn loaded, Acoustic Suspension, Planer, Ribbon…I’ll NEVER rule out a speaker because of it’s design without listening to them first. Some of the BEST speakers I ever listened to were NOT high-efficient. I had a chance to listen to WAMM (Wilson Audio Magnificent Modulators priced at the time $125,000). Beautiful speakers. I’ve also listened to a speaker designed by Dr Bruce Edgar at about 1/10th the price that were as good or better.
I am still using my Altec model 3841 speakers, which I bought sometime in the late '70s.
When younger folks see them, they are usually amused by their large size, but when they hear the incredible sound quality of these speakers, they are amazed, rather than amused.
Several people have remarked about how these big old speakers sound so much better than the modern speaker systems in their own homes.
And without that in mind, none of what I have said seems to make sense to you in understanding there is a place for Bose speakers and it has nothing to do with your superior minds feeling that because they cost more then you think they should being made in Mexico, they are some how inferior in concept because of their different approach then your Chinese made Plolks or. whatever.
I NEVER said there wasn’t a place for Bose speakers. I do like them. I just have always been able to find BETTER speakers for the same price or even cheaper. I don’t know why you keep mentioning Polks. I surely never have. I’m NOT a fan of Polks. Never have been.
Bose CAN be musically pleasing speakers. Have you listened to other mid-fi speakers? Kef?? Thiel?? Even Boston Acoustics make better speakers then Bose for the same money. None of these are considered professional high-efficient speakers.
One place I truly like Bose speakers is in Cars. They did a GREAT job designing the speakers for my 98 Pathfinder. The reflecting sound actually is very nice in that environment.
Here is a partial list of comercial speakers have or still owned…AR2ax, AR 8b, AR226, Boston Acoustic 100. Boston Acoustic 120, Boston Acoustic 60, BIC62, BIC DVC surround speaker.
Burhoe Blue, Polk, Klipsch, Velodyne (which I feel is the best buy in subs, not the best, best bang for the buck) Infinity CC, .first gen Bose 901, Bose 201, Bose LS 48, JBL PA speakers , Peavy PA Speakers., MCM sub…and a plethora of home made units and a bunch I am straining to remember. A lot of this stuff was just dumped on me by my son including the Bose LS48 system which retails for a discracful $4k as a freebie gift to my wife.
Polk is one the biggest selling speaker companies and makes some middle of the road and very high end units. Not being able to afford their best, I was never impressed either. I am so dosappointed in both the Polk and Klipsch CCs they now do duty as surround speakers in the family room. My son has managed several audio stores including Tweeter in the Boston area. They sold lotsof high end speakers…there is nothing they have sold when he worked there, I haven’t heard but…IT MEANS NOTHING in a showroom. If you can’t take it home, don’t buy it. But yes, I was impressed by Magnaplanar speakers. My son has Martin Logan in his main listening room.
Two things I really appreciate in our discussion that seems very relavant to your sincere and informed opinions. First, you never tried to sprout speaker specs other then efficiency and secondly, driver construction materials were never a major topic. As you and I know they can be completely irrelavant as any company is free to make up anything they want to sell speakers.
@VDC…
You have something there. If you look at the workmanship and natural materials in cabinetry and drivers in older speakers, like a good violin, it can have a huge affect on sound. I gave away and sold some really great speakers that had nothing to do with sound. I worked too much, money shifting with a family to support my sailing habit seemed to,win out. The other was the wife factor. When she tired of the decor…sometimes the speakers had to go…lespecially the big ones. The only speaker I regret not having today still, are the Burhoe Blues made byIMO, an under appreciated speaker company of old.
Your plethora of past speakers is impressive.
I’ve some Altec Model-One’s, AR-1’s…Altec Model 15’s…and now a custom built pair I built 2 years ago. And another pair of rear speakers using Altec components.
I agree speaker specs are really meaningless. Especially how many watts they can handle. And that seems to be the ONE spec people who know NOTHING about speakers focus on. My Altec-15’s were only rated as 65 watts so they must be really lousy.
I agree that the overall sound of the speaker is the most important thing and that what the speakers are made of are secondary…HOWEVER…there is some something to be said about a company that will spend 10 times as much to build a woofer made with a cast frame as opposed to one that uses a stamped steel frame. Why go through the added expense if there isn’t a sound difference?? The frame is something you’ll NEVER EVER see. Some manufacturers started using Titanium for cone material…and some used Mylar…but they eventually came back to paper or some type of Aluminum alloy. There’s a reason they keep coming back.
As for Tweeter…That’s where I bought my Klipsch center channel. Bought it 2 days before they went out of business. Normally $500…I got it for $120. Best price I could find on-line was $350. And I don’t consider Tweeter to sell high-end. Sure higher-end then Best Buy. Have you heard of Ensemble Music Systems in Nashua NH?? They carry some pretty high-end systems. A place in Upstate NY called Clark Music carried very high-end. Interesting store…they sold Piano’s and high-end audio. There’s a couple of places in Boston. But there’s not much in any of these stores the average person can buy. Krell amps for $20,000 is a little out of reach. One of their high end systems are more then I paid for my house.
Klipsch produced good efficient speakers. They lacked real low base…but they were very pleasant sounding and LOUD… I haven’t listened to their new stuff…but from the looks of it…they downgraded from what they use to carry.
JBL has lost ALL credibility with me since they were bought out by Harmon. In fact I feel that way about all the Harmon companies. Harmon went out and bought some of the BEST audio companies in the world and then butchered their manufacturing here in the US and sent it to China…Crown, JBL, Mark Levinson to name a few.
Just talking has made me miss those Boston Acoustic 120s I had refoamed and gave to my wife’s best friend. She is tone deaf; maybe she’ll take the BIC62s in trade…I’m a hope’n.
You are right. It’s really hard to see where everyone is going with computer designed speakers and sterile sound make in Taiwan. I came across this article when building speakers…what do you think ? One man’s opinion.
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/speaker.htm
@MikeInNH note author’s reference to his rebuilding his Altec Lansing speakers.
Someone mentioned Dr.Bruce Edgar. Big fan of his horn designs. Not too many American manufacturers left in the world of better home audio. Polk sold out years ago to DEI. Even the good car audio brands like Orion and PPI that used to be built in Arizona have long since been bought out and exist in name only. One US company still making speakers worth listening to are Vandersteen.
You are right. It's really hard to see where everyone is going with computer designed speakers and sterile sound make in Taiwan. I came across this article when building speakers...what do you think ? One man's opinion.
Kind of hard to tell from this persons opinion. For one he makes a statement that Altec A7’s don’t produce the human voice very well…That is ONE aspect almost EVERY sound engineer in world who’s listen to A7’s is that they produce the human voice better then ANY speaker out there. That’s one reason they were the #1 speaker used in theaters for over 50 years. And why some very exotic custom movie houses still seek out the A7’s.
Someone mentioned Dr.Bruce Edgar.
That was me. He’s one reason Horn technology has made a huge comeback. He makes some beautiful horns. Ever hear of the Exempler Project??? Basically taking the A7 drivers and putting them in a Tractrix horn base cabinet and high frequency horn.
" he makes the statement that Altec A7 don’t produce the human voice very well "
At least according to this article http://www.audioworld.com/audio-production/pro-audio/2003/altec-lansing-legacy-a7-loudspeaker/ Altec Lansing changed the construction material in the A7, so they are not quite original from 2003. I understand most of any changes in speaker design now has more to do with cost of making it then it does actually improving the sound. This could be but one example of Altec Lansing “selling their soul” before actually selling out. It would not be the first time companies tried to alter specs so their products could be more cheaply made in China. Also, I would be reluctant to dismiss his observations as after three feet from a speaker driver, you hear more of the room then you do from the speaker. This makes horns more suitable for larger venues in general and not necessarily making the a7 a great home speaker…which is encumbered by it’s confines. Large theaters are a new ball game; different from home listening…I feel his article is slanted to that area.
Making paper drivers and wood horns is more labor intensive then stamping plastic and aluminum diaphrams, cones and horns. No one says that you can’t make desent sound from aluminum or plastic horns, but to do it right, you need to spend more money elsewhere, capacitors and coils and electronics for active crossovers. The reluctance to do this is where the problems lie. I have an affinity toward my old AR8b which used paper driver cones and my Velodyne and older BA models which use fewer and not more crossover components. IMO, BA with it’s updated, easily produced in China drivers, leaves much to be desired. ( like everyone else)
AR like Altec Lansing is reduce to selling computer speakers and other junk under their name…made guess where ?
For us to include a discussion of the really high end speakers is a non starter as most of us will NEVER have many of them in our own living room listening areas, which make the comparison of these speakers unattainable. To not include your own listening area and talk about speaker performance where after three feet, you DO hear more of the room then the speaker…makes all of these debates about best speakers, very subjective…to say the least.
Altec Lansing changed the construction material in the A7, so they are not quite original from 2003.
You’re confused with the Altec/Lansing and the REAL Altec/Lansing.
Little history…
In the early 80’s the REAL Altec was sold off by LTV. Unfortunately when they sold them off they left them with tens of millions of dollars of debt. A couple of years later - trying to stay afloat - Altec sold off it’s name Altec/Lansing Consumer Products to “Sparkomatic”. This company is the one that makes your PC speakers. Back then they wanted to get into the high-end home and car audio. It didn’t work out too well.
The REAL Altec continued on but only in the professional audio arena (theaters, recording studios etc…etc) until they got bought out by Mark IV industries…and then Telex. Telex also owned another professional audio company (EV - ElectraVoice). The president of EV was also on the board of Telex and when they bought Altec they merged the products into one umbrella under EV. Altec then ceased exist. Then around 1999 Telex sold the name Altec to the company Altec/Lansing Consumer Products. They tried to bring back the Altec line, but never could. They outsourced the speakers to China and they were not as good as the originals.
And a side note…When Altec was bought by EV and merged their products into EV…they sold the Oklahoma plant to one of the last engineers (Bill Hussack - not quite sure how to spell it). He formed a company called Great Plains audio that would service all the old Altec gear still in use. He has all the original plans and tools to build all the old equipment. Well this company has taken right off…and he’s now making NEW Altec speaker components (speakers, horns, crossovers…etc…etc). He’s NOT making any of their amps…just speakers. He even designed a NEW 604 speaker and selling it to several companies. Brought back some of the old designs and added new lines. Great company. So while the Altec name may be dead…their products are still alive and doing well.
Since unless you are an audio geek most people wouldn’t know an A7 from a 901 I’m including a couple of pics. One set of furniture grade A7’s ( my old ones) and the industrial looking ones you’d have found in old theaters.
@MikleInNH
"You’re confused with the Altec/Lansing and the REAL Altec/Lansing."
I’m not confused ( at least about that, maybe some other stuff according to my wife) and am totally aware of their change of status just like I am AR and Boston Acoustics and a Plethora of other once proud names. I don’t hear anyone referring to the V7 as pre and post 2003 or pre and post anything.
Like Chrysler…I feel regardless of who owns them, people will identify with the name and why they can have different opinions of the same product.
Also @Proacfan pictures certainly demonstrate that the typical A7 is very directional and in the average living room, that great “voice reproduction” just isn’t available to anyone but those in the right place. But, nostalgia weighs hard on the human mind and IMO, “the older we are, the better we were” comes into play…
At this point too, we also need to part company ;=( on the “old tube amps” some how having magical qualities. The primary sound source was 33 1/3 records back then and only occasionally, very good reel to reel. The digital age, especially the CD put a whole new requirement on speakers and amps. In general, todays electronics are much better at producing accurate sound. Most people who like tube amps just had good memories of their youth or really like distortion. :=()
And, there must still be a lot of we fools out there in the self proclaimed audiophile’s opinion when the 901 in the same basic, but more efficient configuration sold (and sells) more as a home speaker them the A7 ever did. SIZE MATTERS…(sound too). Sales doesn’t tell the whole story, but like a Corolla, the maker has to be doing something right other then selling a name…because by your own good and complete history lesson, it didn’t work for Altec/Lansing.
BTW, I agree, EV was one of those under appreciated companies.
I'm not confused and am totally aware of their change of status just like I am AR and Boston Acoustics and a Plethora of other one time proud names. I don't hear anyone referring to the V7 as pre and post 2003 or pre and post anything.
The A7 after 1999 was in name only. They NEVER sold any of them. They produced a handful of them…but NEVER sold them. Maybe sent them out for reviews…but from what I read…they didn’t sell a single one. Then after 2 years they folded that division.
The digital age, especially the CD put a whole new requirement on speakers and amps
CD’s required speakers and amps to have a wide dynamic range. And that’s where your professional speakers like Altec really shined. They already were producing a wide dynamic range. Most home speakers at the time didn’t…nor did they need to. But professional speakers already had to support a wide dynamic range because their source wasn’t vinyl…instead it was live performance.
The high-end amps didn’t have a problem with CD’s. You’re lower end amps were blowing circuits/fuses. Good clean low distortion amps were already being built. Just not too many home owners owned them. Any McIntosh amp of the 50’s will still sound excellent today no matter what the source. Probably better then MOST amps you can buy at Best Buy.
My amp is a 5 channel tube amp…using the WE-300B tubes. The sound is as sweat as you can get. But you need good efficient speakers (greater then 95db efficiency). This is a pure Class A amp that I bought and built as a kit from Cary Audio some 10 years ago. Still running great and haven’t had to replace a tube yet. Only drawback is you have to let the tubes warm up about 10 minutes before you can use them.
I agree with efficiency and dynamic range. This is a worth while measurement…but again, in speakers because “after three feet” you hear more of the room, efficiency is very room dependent. High frequencies are relatively easy to reproduce at high volume, lows, not so much. Speakers don’t need the efficiency of Kilspchhorns or EVs or Altecs of old because the have POWER, cheap and lots of it. They can be smaller by design and still sound good.
The dirty little secrete that audiophiles are sometimes reluctant to confess is that…The WF (Wife Factor) has always been a factor in home audio and with lots of power, speakers are much smaller and often MORE capable. As long as one partner desires sex less then the other, they tend to be in control and Bose gets it ! So you didn’t know that Bose “sold (by) sex”. ( I plan to get into trouble with that statement ! Oooops)
Well guess what. They all do, as does Honda those hypocrites. The use the WF. Why would they make their cars with so female friendly and name models LE, SE and EX ? ;=()
BTW, I don’t see many women finding the V7 appealing living room furniture ! There go the sales !
The dirty little secrete that audiophiles are sometimes reluctant to confess is that.....The WF (Wife Factor) has always been a factor in home audio and with lots of power
That has ALWAYS been my limiting factor.
BTW, I don't see many women finding the V7 appealing living room furniture ! There go the sales !
And most people I know who own them are single with no kids.
The main reason I built my current speakers was because my model 15’s didn’t fit with the room my wife just decorated. So I rebuilt them making them taller and skinnier…and while I was there I updated the horn and crossover. Actually made them sound very nice…especially listening to movies.
Speakers don't need the efficiency of Kilspchhorns or EVs or Altecs of old because the have POWER, cheap and lots of it.
True…BUT if you’ve ever listened to a true SET tube amp with only 12 watts pushing very efficient accurate speakers…you’ll understand. I’ve only heard a few systems as good as mine…One reason I don’t plan on upgrading any time soon.
"I’ve only heard a few systems as good as mine…"
I’m going to guess that very few other people have too. One thing in common to some very good speakers is SIZE. Unfortunately, the other is ugly. Not in your or my eyes, but importantly to other members of the family. But, I have had so many different speakers because I sometimes relate it to any change in decor the interior decorator wants to do.
“Gee, don’t those speaker cabinets on display match the new sofa in the down stairs living room better then we have ?” It “sometimes” works.