Let’s see, that’s a lot smarter than setting up design so that the oil pump is bathed in oil as soon as you pour in the refill. Old oil is a lot better because it’s broken in.
Just as it’s so smart to save resources by eliminating a spare tire or a transmission dipstick.
(Later generation of chimps).
The spare adds weight and eliminates trunk space. Plus, you’d be amazed at how few people have actually used the spare or even know how to change it… SO eliminate it.
The German engineers who removed the dipsticks have great confidence in their oil level sensors and had lots of trouble sealing the dipstick to make their crankcase evap systems work properly. I can explain it, but I don’t agree with it, either.
PS: what would a transmission dipstick have to do with ECS?
Don’t tell me that someone has also eliminated oil dipsticks…
That 5.3 quart capacity is for a dry fill. My service information shows a capacity of 4.5 quarts for an oil change and filter service.
Any engine, even that old Chevy 350, will have oil puddled in recesses in the block and head and in the oil galleries and return passages. Your car with dual overhead cams and oil actuated solenoids for the variable valve timing will probably have more residual oil in these places than an old V8. The only way to completely drain the oil would be to remove the valve cover and turn the engine sideways, then upside down.
BMW and Mercedes have eliminated oil dipsticks. Wait, let me rephrase that…they have improved oil dipsticks and evolved them from dipsticks to oil level sensors. Oil level is checked from the driver’s seat, and the display on the instrument panel will tell you if and how low the oil is and how much to add. What could be easier? If I pay $70,000 for a car it damn well better tell me everything I need to know without having to open the hood and get my hands dirty.
As for spares, personally I like having one, but as a professional, having seen what I’ve seen, I think some people are better off without one. Driving in on a ruined spare because it was flat when you put it on, lug nuts inside out, the whole spare put on inside out, stripped/damaged studs, spare tire loose, it’s ridiculous sometimes.
When you shut the engine down, oil remains in the lifters, all the spaces between the wear surfaces, in a few miscellaneous cavities etc. (if you removed the valvecover you’d find some), as well as stuck to the cylinder walls and valvetrain surfaces, and in the pump, th echain (if you have one), and a few other spots I’m forgetting. In my experience that’s usually about 3/4 of a qt. Perfectly normal. And I speak as a former chimpanzee. Ooo ooooo oo-oooo (picture armpit scratching).
I commend your attention to your engine. But IMHO you’re overthinking the situation.
@mountainbike I Agree! When changing oil I would pour the old oil and that remaining in the filter into a jug and the amount collected was always less than the listed capacity. The rest was definitely not in the crankcase since the drain plug was at the lowest point. As you say, it is hung up in numerous areas inside the engine.
You guys are all scratching and jumping around up the wrong tree. My “350” (216, 235, 371, 318, 360, 302…) always drained about 5 qt from the full line, and when I put the filter back on and refilled it with 5 qt, it went right back up to the full line. Any deviation was too small to see–0.1 qt or less. @asemaster has made what may be the first sensible positive statement about this issue: “Your car with dual overhead cams and oil actuated solenoids for the variable valve timing will probably have more residual oil in these places than an old V8.”
Also, thanks for the oil level sensor explanation. Still, I don’t like the absence of a spare or tranny dipstick. I can envision all kinds of problems related to those things…
“My “350” (216, 235, 371, 318, 360, 302…) always drained about 5 qt from the full line, and when I put the filter back on and refilled it with 5 qt, it went right back up to the full line.”
That isn’t influenced by the residual oil in the engine.
Try that after you “remove the valve cover and turn the engine sideways, then upside down.”
Having disassembled a couple engines back then–I didn’t see any pools of oil.
Another note: When I change the oil in my Toyota, it is fresh and clear afterward.
The Honda-- a slight off-note, like weak tea. Same oil type refilled.
The Honda owners manual contains the only statement I have seen so far giving different numbers for oil capacity and how much it takes for an oil change.
“Still, I don’t like the absence of a spare or tranny dipstick”.
When I was a kid, my Dad had a 1939 Chevrolet. When I was about 9 years old, he traded the Chevy for a,1947 Dodge. The 1939 Chevy had an emergency crank to start the engine if the battery was low. I saw my dad " twist her tail" to start the Chevy on a several occasions. The 1947 Dodge didn’t have an emergency crank. I wondered how one could start the engine if the battery was low. The 1939_Chevrolet had a hand choke that was pulled out to start the engine when it was cold. The Dodge e didn’t have a hand choke and I didn’t know how a cold engine could be started without a choke. Times. change and emergency cranks, carburetors with manual chokes, tranny dipsticks and spare tires fall by the wayside.
@melott, Nope 'Murican engineer that used to work for GM near lots of Honda engineers and with German engineers.
And JAWOHL, BMW has eliminated OIL dipsticks to the great consternation of car aficionados and OCD oil-checkers everywhere! The BMW forums are not happy about this nor are they very happy about run-flats and no spares but these are owners who would change a tire and check their own oil.
BMW and Mercedes have eliminated oil dipsticks. Wait, let me rephrase that...they have improved oil dipsticks and evolved them from dipsticks to oil level sensors. Oil level is checked from the driver's seat, and the display on the instrument panel will tell you if and how low the oil is and how much to add. What could be easier?All well and good, except that:
An oil dipstick reading tells you MORE than oil level. Specifically, it lets you know if any of the gaskets that exclude coolant from the oil have failed. Also (though you can’t judge when to change oil by color) it’ll tell you if the car is really, REALLY overdue for an oil change. I can’t imagine buying a used car without pulling the dipstick!
Consider failure modes. If and when a dipstick fails, a replacement can be sourced from the junkyard for $10. When BMWs setup fails (and eventually, some will) what will the replacement cost be? Hmmm? Most people aren’t engineering-savvy, and when they see high-tech stuff on their car, they go “Cool,” not “How much will this cost to fix?”
@melott, again: You know that your car takes 0.7qt less oil than the OM says. To the best of my knowledge, you have never filled a “dry” engine, or even an engine after a pan drop. Therefore–how do you KNOW that 0.7qt of oil stays behind? Isn’t it equally probable that Honda’s “capacities” are off?
@meanjoe75fan No. Not since they specifically give 3 numbers, and the observations, especially of the tan color of the refilled oil, are all in favor of them being correct. There is no data that suggests they are wrong, only the attitudes of posters.
1) An oil dipstick reading tells you MORE than oil level. Specifically, it lets you know if any of the gaskets that exclude coolant from the oil have failed. Also (though you can’t judge when to change oil by color) it’ll tell you if the car is really, REALLY overdue for an oil change. I can’t imagine buying a used car without pulling the dipstick!
The info panel on the instrument cluster will tell you if the car is really overdue for an oil change. No need to look at the dipstick. In fact when you start the car it will tell you how many miles past service you are, if that’s the case.
Do you really think a MB or BMW owner has the slightest interest in seeing and feeling the condition of the oil? That’s what the service department is for.
If you want a $10 dipstick buy a cheap car. Who cares what the repair or replacement cost will be on an oil level sensor? It’s just part of the cost of owning that particular kind of car.
^But it’s a NEEDLESS cost, IMO. Complexity for complexity’s sake doesn’t do it for me–but then I guess that’s why I’d never own a (modern, 4-wheeled) BMW. A 2002 or Boxer bike would be a welcome addition, though.
"Do you really think a MB or BMW owner has the slightest interest in seeing and feeling the condition of the oil?"
The second owner might, immediately prior to becoming the second owner.
For a company that historically has prided itself on the “man/machine” interface, this is “A giant leap [backwards] for Bimmmer kind.” Conceding the brand to Soccer moms seems the next rational step.
Ford, Cadillac, Buick, others have had oil level sensors that warned the driver when the engine oil level was low for what, 20 years now? It’s not new technology, it’s not particularly expensive or unreliable (though I do seem to replace a few of the Northstar oil level sensors), and I certainly don’t see an easy, interactive, clean oil level warning system as “NEEDLESS”. I would think that electric windows and door locks and cruise control as far more needless.
You push a button in the car and it tells you if/how low the oil is. Not open to interpretation, checking both sides of the stick, being able to see the oil or not, or what have you. Seems elegantly simple to me.
I have a few friends with 2002s, one a tii. One of my favorite body styles of Bimmers and fun to ride in.
Melott, you asked a question. We all gave you our best answers. If you still feel it’s unacceptable, trade the car in. If you think our answers are BS, that’s okay too. You’re welcome to your opinion.
I’m going to sleep tonight perfectly comfortable that my oil is fine. I hope you can see your way to do so too. If not, it’s no skin off my bottom.
I think it was a mistake for Honda to provide dry fill oil quantity in the owners manual, customers have no use for that information. The dry fill info is in the service manual for use when assembling or installing an engine.
With some engines the dry fill amount is more than a quart greater than the oil change amount. There is a lot of oil retained in the cylinder head(s), in the cam galleys, lash adjuster galleys and VVT gears.
Dry fill on those old V8s was 5.5 to 6 quarts.
No problem here. The new engines (in contrast to a SBC) use engine oil for other things, like cam phasing/VTEC/etc. That undrained oil isn’t toxic, doesn’t cause any problem. Time to apologize to the engineers AND the chimps!