Mechanics/Self-Employed/Etc: do you get tired of having to justify your hourly rate?

General Discussion
21

OK4450, there’s a lot of truth to what you’ve written, however I believe that with auto repairs it’s more complicated. Most anyone who’s owned a car for at least ten years has been subjected to scam artists and/or incompetent mechanics at least once. Nobody gets out of a dealer shop without having at least $3,000 worth of “recommended repairs”, far too many of which are unnecessary… like $500 for a new oil pan gasket because there’s a bit of seepage, or because the plug hole is stripped and “the pan needs to be replaced”… and after they talk to someone knowledgeable they find out about options to repair this for under $20. I believe people have high anxiety levels when their car needs to go to the shop and they don’t know what to believe. Way too many crooks, scams, and low integrity shops have permeated the industry.

In short, I don’t think most people mind paying a mechanic they trust for work that they can trust will be quality work. But finding that shop and that mechanic is a crap shoot. There are good, honest, competent mechanics, but, sadly, the field is also filled with horror stories.

Solution? I have none. I’m tempted to suggest that if our primary and secondary schools taught far more physics (and taught it well) and critical thinking skills, if they taught kids HOW to think rather than WHAT to think, perhaps the crooks and scam artists would wash out of the industry, but I know my thought is only a pipe dream.

22

I spend absolutely no time justifying my rates–for parts or labor–to anyone. Should the discussion ever arise I quickly turn it around to questioning the “customer” as to why the rates should be lower. I have no interest in competing with the “coupon crowd”. I’ve even told customers about other shops that do work for less money than we do.

I wonder how many people walk into Outback and ask them to justify the $27.99 for a steak?

Not that I’m unsympathetic. Like TSM says above, many people have been subject to getting fleeced, but high prices don’t necessarily mean getting ripped.

On the other side of things, not a week goes by that a “customer” doesn’t try to screw me out of something or just flat out lies to me to get something for free.

23
Most anyone who's owned a car for at least ten years has been subjected to scam artists and/or incompetent mechanics at least once.

That is the main crux of the problem. We see it in this forum all the time…

. Should I sped $150 for the dealer to do a fuel system flush on my 6mo old car?
. Is Nitrogen really NECESSARY for my tires?
. According to my owners manual the service interval for a timing-belt is 105k miles, but the dealer says I should change it every 50k miles.

Then there’s the flat out SCAM’S…

Mechanics replacing a catalytic converter and all the O2 sensors for $2000 when just replacing ONE sensor for $120 would have solved the problem.

I could keep going…and goinjg…and going…and going.

The proble is…people don’t like getting ripped off…although I also feel I’m getting ripped off on my cell phone bill…luckily my company pays it.

24

I don’t believe it’s real maintenance costs that concern people because, like a cell phone bill, those costs can be anticipated and are fairly well defined.

It’s the unknowns, the unanticipated costs that feed the monster. High dollar repairs where they can often be guessing on your dime. Suggested additional services that are questionable in terms of need or benefit and are often high profit generators for the shop. These sow the seeds of discontent…

25

"Then there’s the flat out SCAM’S…

Mechanics replacing a catalytic converter and all the O2 sensors for $2000 when just replacing ONE sensor for $120 would have solved the problem."

That’s arguable, in my opinion

Depending on the guy, it could, sadly, be incompetence, misdiagnosis, or incomplete diagnosis

But if you can prove the guy knew the sensor was the only problem, and he sold all the sensors, plus the cat, then you have a case for scam

I’ve seen many misdiagnosis that were rather expensive, and shouldn’t have been. Depending on the viewpoint, it could be seen as a scam. But I know the guys who did the diagnosis, and there was no maliciousness, just bad diagnosis. And in some cases, the guy was simply incompetent. Some of these guys were great at mechanical work, but hopeless at diagnosis

:grimace:

26

I’ve always considered cat converters to often be a judgment call, but we get too many posts here of people who were charged many hundreds of dollars for a new oil pan because the bung hole got stripped out. And many other highly questionable repairs.

27

The proble is…people don’t like getting ripped off…although I also feel I’m getting ripped off on my cell phone bill…luckily my company pays it.

That’s the thing, nobody likes feeling ripped but it’s by no means unique to car repair. We’re just an easy target.

EVERY industry out there is rife with add-ons, upsells, fees, upcharges, recommended services and additional products or features that have no real benefit for the user and serve only to pad the pockets of the provider.

I go to the vet and I’m told the dog needs a new formula of Science Diet and should have some shots or flea treatment for $XX.

I go out to dinner and I’m asked if I’d like an appetizer or have room for the dessert special.

I take my kids to the dentist and I’m told they need a fluoride treatment for $XX in addition to a regular cleaning.

I download software from a vendor and I’m offered additional tech support for $XX.

I buy new shoes and I’m shown a set of orthopedic insoles and offered a bottle of something that makes the leather last longer.

The landscaper comes by to do the weed control and tells me I need my lawn thatched and aerated and the soil amended to bring the pH into level.

I don’t particularly like any of these things but I don’t feel like they’re trying to rip me off, just trying to sell more/better of their services.

28

The vast majority of shops and mechanics are honest and perform a difficult and usually thankless job.

Complaining comes easy; offering praise is much more difficult.

29

There’s no question that “packs” and scams are all around us. But I’ve personally been witness to way too many scams, “packs”, incompetence and outright dishonesty in the automotive repair industry to dismiss the average car owner’s high anxiety over automotive work. I’ve been victim to a few myself.

I truly believe that most shops and mechanics are honest and competent, but I think the statement that the “vast majority” are is way overly generous. I even know of one local chain shop where the mechanics are paid commissions for all the additional revenue they generate over and above the required work, and if a customer declines they routinely stamp in huge red capital letters “CUSTOMER HAS BEEN ADVISED THAT VEHICLE IS UNSAFE TO DRIVE” on the customer’s copy of the shop order, no matter how minor the recommended work is. Something as simple as a spark plug change suggested based strictly on the vehicle’s mileage gets the stamp.

30
I truly believe that most shops and mechanics are honest and competent, but I think the statement that the "vast majority" are is way overly generous.

I believe that too…but the bad ones are as high as 20%…maybe even more. At 5% you get people skeptical…at 10% people get paranoid.

When you start looking at the national chains like Midas and Firestone and Sears…then that number can even be higher.

31

The problem with value statements like honesty, 20%, competent, is it puts the garage and the driver on equal footing, which they are not. Thanks to google and free code scans at parts stores, everyone is a mechanic. I’m a professional and certified auto technician, you drive a car and have a different profession than I do. When it comes down to it, I know more about the care and needs of your car than you do. Just as I don’t argue with my dentist about how to fix a toothache or with the roofer about how to stop the water from coming into my house, I would expect a customer to take my expertise and recommendations seriously.

We all go to work to make money, don’t we? And I would certainly be remiss to myself and the other people in the shop if I didn’t do all I could to make as much money as possible. And I’ve found that the simplest way to do that is to be honest and direct. Why some places use a more difficult approach is tough to figure out.

32

I stand by my statement that the vast majority of mechanics and shops are competent and honest.
That statement is based on what I’ve been exposed to over the years while on the inside of the issue.

How many times on this forum alone has someone posted a question about feeling ripped off because a certain repair is going to cost them XXX dollars and the knee jerk reaction is to agree with them while knowing nothing about the locale or the exact details behind the repair? A lot.

33

When I was in graduate school, money was tight. Also, we lived in married student housing and there was no place to work on a car. Besides, time was as short as money. I found a good service station that did the normal maintenance. For specialized work or big jobs, the proprietor knew the good specialists. For example, when a snap ring broke in the manual transmission of my Rambler, he knew the shop that was good for manual transmission work. He knew where the best alignment tech in town worked. I didn’t bargain shop and I didn’t question the price. Yet, I would bet that I saved money by having the repair done right the first time.

34
We all go to work to make money, don't we? And I would certainly be remiss to myself and the other people in the shop if I didn't do all I could to make as much money as possible

I have no problem with mechanics or anyone making as much money as possible…But does that mean you have to be dishonest about it?

Would you sell someone a new catalytic converter and all new O2 sensors when you knew that just replacing one down-stream O2 sensor would solve the problem?

There are mechanics who do. I’ve run into them…or had friends who had also.

Friend of my sons had a problem with his car over heating. Took it to this place for a diagnosis. They recommended replacing the head-gasket, radiator and water-pump for a cost of $5000+. My son asked if I would look at it for him since it was way more then he or he parents could afford. First thing I did was pull the thermostat and tested it. It was faulty. Replaced the thermostat and flushed the radiator for a cost of parts and materials. Never over heated again.

In my town we only have 10 garages you can take your vehicle to. I trust only 2 of them.

35

I’ve been on the other side of the fence. The university where I taught had a maximum it would pay to teach an overload course. I was asked to teach a statistics course as an overload. The Dean of the college where my department was housed would only allow half the maximum even though the money didn’t come out of his budget. I turned down the overload assignment. The business college then asked me to teach its statistics course for the maximum so I accepted the offer. My department chair(math dept) was angry with me and said I was disloyal. I told him that loyalty is a two way street. I will patronize a business and be a loyal customer if, in turn, they are fair to me and do good work.

36

Would you sell someone a new catalytic converter and all new O2 sensors when you knew that just replacing one down-stream O2 sensor would solve the problem?

No, of course not. But then again the testing and equipment used to come to the conclusion that all that’s needed is an O2 sensor is worth something, isn’t it? Many people refuse to see that. Just yesterday I had a potential customer leave complaining that he wasn’t going to pay $50 just to find out why the rear defroster on his 87 Nova wasn’t working, muttering something about not being treated fairly. Well guess what buddy? The quality of that free work you’re looking for is going to be about what you pay for it.

Since we’re talking in percentages, I would estimate that 50% or more of complaints of being ripped off or taken advantage of are completely baseless and the result of an ignorant customer. I recently read a Google review of another shop in my area. The reviewer stated “Don’t bring your car to these thieves. I failed an emissions test and took my car to XYZ and these crooks charged me $103 just to tell me I needed a new gas cap.” So XYZ did everything by the book, had customer authorization for diagnosis in the amount of $94 plus tax, repaired the car with a $15 gas cap with no other charges, and is still being vilified by someone.

Last week I had a woman call in about electrical diagnosis as her headlights weren’t working. She had no idea her headlights were out until her daughter borrowed the car and told her she had no headlights. We checked the system and found 2 burned out bulbs. Instead of being happy it was a simple fix she complained about being charged to to diagnose such a simple problem and thought it odd they both burned out at once. I explained that probably one burned out and then the other some time later. She seemed sure she would have noticed one headlight out yet was oblivious to driving around with 2 burned out.

Clueless people like these are the ones who complain to the BBB and state offices and write bad reviews.

Often the perception of being oversold is simply not understanding what’s being done or wanting a lower quality work than the shop is willing to do. For example, Shop A does a tire rotation. Next day, the customer returns with a complaint of a steering wheel shimmy at freeway speeds. A road test verifies it, checking tire balance shows the tire now on the right front out of balance. Rebalancing the front tires cures the shimmy. At this point the shop has lost over half an hour of time and profit, and the customer refuses to pay for the time and balancing because the problem was caused (as they see it) by the shop rotating the tires.

What’s the long-term answer? Every tire rotation now also gets all the tires rebalanced and charges the customer accordingly. Shop A is now charging $44 for a tire rotation. Some people say gouging, while in fact it’s simply higher quality and pride in workmanship.

Yes, unfortunately there are unscrupulous mechanics. There are also unscrupulous doctors, accountants, plumbers, landscapers, grocers, roofers, dentists, college administrators, and every other calling you can think of. Probably in the same numbers as there are mechanics.

I think painting 80% of any industry as dishonest or untrustworthy speaks as much to unreasonable or unclear expectations as a customer as it does to the business.

37

I wholeheartedly agree with asemaster except on one point. That is the 50% figure assumed to be baseless complaints and which I feel is likely far higher than that.

Just to throw an example out there about complaints, the BBB, and posting it on the internet.
The local Chevy/Buick/Toyota dealer here is long established and has a good reputation.
A guy from TX traveling through had a balky Blazer which was diagnosed as a failing fuel pump and a clogged fuel filter. He authorized a new filter but declined the new fuel pump.

He then hit the open road back to Houston and about a 100 miles from there the pump surrendered. This led to a 100 mile tow home to be repaired by “someone who knows what they’re doing”.

He then lodged a BBB complaint and vilified the dealer on an internet complaint site. No doubt he also told all of his relatives, co-workers, and friends (if he has any…) what a bunch of low-lifes are employed at the OK dealer.
There is no way on Earth anyone in a lifetime of Sundays would ever convince him the fault was all his when he chose to roll the dice by declining the fuel pump repair.

38
I would estimate that 50% or more of complaints of being ripped off or taken advantage of are completely baseless and the result of an ignorant customer.

I understand that many customers complain needlessly…I really do. And I understand that you and OK4450 would never try to cheat/swindle/rip-some-off on a mechanic job.

My point and MB’s point is that there are dishonest mechanics out there who rip people off every day. It’s not just me and MB. Midas, Sears, Firestone and NTB have all been taken to court by different attorney generals in many different states over the years and LOST . Like it or not there are dishonest mechanics.

Just as there are dishonest software engineers I’ve come across. I don’t try to defend them. I know they’re there. When I was doing consulting I was hired many times to clean up a mess by either an incompetent engineer or a completely dishonest one…sometimes it’s tough to tell.

Here’s the WORSE one I ran across.

A mid-size company hired this engineer to build them this order-entry system for their warehouse. Part of the contract was he was to provide them with the software CODE so if there are any changes or enhancements needed in the future. He delivered on time within budget and everything worked fine. After using the software for a few months they found they needed a few tweaks. So they hired me to give them a quote (the original engineer was on another contract in another state). Well it turned out that he did give them the source code…but it was locked in this code management system that he designed. I called him up to find out how to access it…His response was - “That’ll cost them $100,000.” This guy did it to many companies…and more then half the time they paid his ransom demand. What he did was perfectly legal…not very ethical. Several companies had sued and lost. It was all spelled out in the contract. And you can wonder why the owners of the company were extremely skeptical of me and my industry. My quote to fix the system was to start from scratch…about $50,000.

Here in New England during the housing boom of the 80’s and 90’s there far far too many DISHONEST contractors. When we bought our first house here in the 80’s I brought my dad along who was a contractor in NY. The first 10 homes we saw my dad is pointing out MAJOR flaws that he said should be fixed immediately. Every industry has them.

39

“It was all spelled out in the contract.”

Presumably written in such a way that this snake engineer would understand what it really meant, but the company would not . . . ?

And the contract presumably made no mention of the “code management system he designed” . . . ?

Or was the company so fixated on the source code, that they didn’t spend enough time analyzing the contract?

I wonder . . . if a savvy guy had read the contract before signing it and called this snake on it, would he have admitted what his real game was?

Let’s go further . . . is it possible/probable this snake designed this software to be less than perfect, so that it’s extremely likely the company would have no choice but to call him up at a later point?

“My quote to fix the system was to start from scratch…about $50,000.”

That’s cheaper than the snake’s ransom demand, anyways. Hopefully the snake was wondering why the company never called him, to cough up that additional 100K

But, sadly, he’d probably already made so much money from all the others, that it didn’t matter much in the end.

:frowning:

40
"It was all spelled out in the contract."

Presumably written in such a way that this snake engineer would understand what it really meant, but the company would not . . . ?

And the contract presumably made no mention of the “code management system he designed” . . . ?

Exactly. This was back in the 80’s when many small to mid companies were still not using computers. They were just starting to get cheap enough for them to be useful. So the people running these companies had no idea about computers. They were easy prey for the unscrupulous engineer. And unfortunately there were more then just a few of them.

That's cheaper than the snake's ransom demand, anyways. Hopefully the snake was wondering why the company never called him, to cough up that additional 100K

I don’t know what the outcome was…he balked at my $50k proposal. Not sure what they did. My offer was fair. It was going to take me a minimum of 5 man months.