Liability of sludge in engine

Maintenance/Repairs
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61

Hi Anne,

I’m sorry about your truck, as I am sure it was a very nice truck, that drove really well, and gave you decent fuel mileage for the size vehicle it is.

I have some questions for you on how you used the truck.
I haven’t seen anyone ask these questions as of yet:

What type of driving do you do?
I know you average about 600 miles per week, but are they all highway miles, just to and from work? Or are they 600 miles of stop and go city driving?

Where do you drive?
Weather is different in Dallas than it is in Fargo.
Cold weather driving affects oil differently than warm weather driving.

Do you carry a lot of passengers or equipment in your truck, tow trailers with it, or is it only you in the vehicle racking up those 600 miles a week, and the truck is pretty much empty? The harder an engine has to work at moving its mass (and any additional), the weaker the oil gets, sometimes in a very short period of time.

I know that you took your car to an oil change shop on a regular basis, and followed all the information in your owners manual, and that the only mistake that you made was to not have someone pop the hood for you on a regular basis, and actually take note of the oil level during the 12k mile oil change intervals.

You honestly do better than probably 50% of the drivers on the road right now, in that regards. I can’t imagine that GM is going to deny your warranty repair at all, since you have provided the oil change receipts, and from their demands of virgin oil samples from the oil change shop, they have already downloaded your truck’s oil life monitor’s history, and confirmed your oil change frequency.

All you have to do at this point is put pressure on your dealer, or go above them, and contact a representative at GM, and get the ball rolling in your favor. Assigning blame on anyone serves no purpose at this point.

Talk to the service manager and the owner of the dealer, and ask them if your truck has or has not required proper servicings according to the oil life monitor history and the receipts you provided them from your oil change shop? If they say yes, then tell them that you want them to replace the engine, without any further delay. If they say no, then ask them for a full explanation as to why they are denying your claim, and that you want the contact number for the region’s manager.

At this point, I would recommend that you change to a different oil change shop, or, better yet, go to your dealer, and ask them what engine oil you should buy and have installed at your shop that meets GM’s specs (which is now Dexos 1 or Dexos 2), and then sometime during your 600 mile week, you drop by a store and buy the needed amount of engine oil of the right quantity and weight, along with an oil filter, and then take that to your oil shop, and WATCH them change the oil for you.

Obviously there were quite a few failures in the time you owned your truck, from the oil quality that you shop uses, to the confusion of what oil is being put into your engine, to the quantity of oil that your truck needs, to how long oil should be used for in your engine, under your driving habits.

If you can eliminate the type of oil used as an issue, and now make an effort to check your oil level once a week, and use the oil that your dealership recommends you buy, you won’t ever need to have something like this happen to you ever again.

I am sure you will get your truck fixed soon, and under warranty.

Oh, and here’s an extra tidbit of information:

I believe the cause of all your troubles is the Direct Injection fuel system in your engine. This technology is extremely, extremely hard on oil, as it increases the amount of fuel dilution that the oil has to cope with.

Unless you use an oil that is good at handling fuel dilution, you are going to severely shorten the oil’s life, regardless of what the oil life monitor tells you. All manufacturers that have direct fuel injection systems are running into this problem. Porsche, Audi, VW, GM, and others are all running into oil dilution issues with DFI engines across all their models.

Unlike water, fuel doesn’t evaporate off after the oil gets to a certain temperature during a long highway drive. What it does do is reduce the temperature that the oil resists getting burned away by the combustion chamber heat and pressure. I have seen many reports of DFI vehicles having 3% fuel dilution in oil samples in shorter oil change periods than your car, and the original flash point of the oil might have been 435 degrees F, but with 3% dilution, is reduced to 360 degrees F.

This means the oil burns off quickly, and puts a lot of carbon on the engine internals.
This then leads to oxidation of the oil, your oil control rings on the pistons get locked up, your oil starts to burn oil quicker than you would expect, sludge then builds up inside your motor, and eventually, failure.

I would recommend only a full synthetic oil in any DFI engine, and one that can cope with fuel dilution for a long oil change interval. These oils typically have Porsche, BMW, Audi, VW, and Mercedes approvals on their bottles. They will also have the few GM standards listed on them too, like for their Corvette engines.

Not all 5W-30 engine oils are the same, by any stretch.
I doubt your oil change place, which I don’t believe you ever mentioned the name of, ever sold you an oil that would actually meet the needs of a DFI system over a 12k mile interval.

Good luck to you and your truck.
I’m sure it will be back on the road soon.

BC.

62

My only question is, has the dealer ever experienced engine sludge, when a owner has had oil changes done at the dealership using OLM. If so GM would pay.

63

BC, My dealership is very good. They are standing behind me just trying to get all the facts. There are many things going on here and some of what you say is intereting as well. I am reading all kinds of things on line and from manufactures forums and recalls.

The main part of my driving is about 45 minutes to a place. Wait for 1-2 hours and 45 minutes back about 3 times a week. The I drive to Charlotte NC area on the road for about 1-2 hours on I-485 and I77going about 65MPH. That is about 3-4 times a week. On weekends
I drive it to church about 30 mintues or 25 miles and then afterwards about 75 miles to eat, errands for my mother and then take her home. About 4-5 times a year I take long distant trips of a 1400 miles round trip. Those trips I top off after checking OLM.
So I have not done the math there but I have 42,000 at 2 years.

64

So, mostly highway driving, but with quite a few starts and stops during a day, with a bit of time between each engine shut off, and restart. I would say that you are most likely getting your fuel diluted, especially in winter temps, like this unusual one you have had this year.

I bet if you had this to do all over, just checking your oil level once every other week to watch for low oil level would have warned you about bad changes taking place inside your engine.

Again, I think you are a better car owner than 50% of the people on the road (including just about all of my family members), and just that one change will be the difference of you ever having an engine failure again in the rest of your life.

Make sure you find out from your dealer if they are installing a new/rebuilt engine, or if they are just going to repair the engine currently in your truck.

And finally, if it were me, I would buy the oil, and ask the shop to put in the oil that I provide. Usually most shops will only charge about $15 to do this. I would buy an oil that meets BMW LL-04 specs, too, to stay in the 5W-30 weight range. There are quite a few good choices that are available, and some are even 0W-30, which is better for people living in colder climates than where you live.

Mobil 1, and Castrol will have oils sitting on the shelf at every Walmart or Auto Parts store that meets this spec, all across the country. If you wanted to get a bit fancier, you can ask the Auto Parts stores if they have Pennzoil Platinum/Ultra or Valvoline SynPower in the European car versions in stock (Checker/O’Reilly stores usually do, I know, I just bought 10 quarts 2 weeks ago on sale for my Boxster, as it needs 9 quarts for an oil change).

If you wanted to save yourself effort, you can order the exact oil you want on Amazon or an auto parts store, and have it shipped to your house, saving you a trip to a store. Have them send you a filter, too. Would take you about 10 minutes to complete the process.

Oil changes are very simple, just that it has become such an important item to have done on newer vehicles, especially those with DFI systems. Plus, since there are so many oil choices out there now, it can drive you nuts if you sit there and try to over think it.

BC.

65

I would assume that the dealership would want to send the oil to their chosen shop. However, several companies do oil analysis. Blackstone is the one I am most familiar with. See blackstone-labs.com to order a kit. The most basic oil analysis is $25.00. This kit can be used to do a virgin oil analysis or a used oil analysis, depending on what the dealership or its experts think they need to look for.

Given that you said they had to replace the injector system, I can’t help but think that fuel was diluting the oil for quite some time, and that may have caused your engine problems, a relative lack of proper lubrication. I would definitely ask the Chevrolet dealer to investigate that possibility, and that a level of confirmation of that being the problem would show through a used oil analysis, as well as types of wear materials, etc going on inside the engine.

If you desire a more in-depth consultation, contact Terry Dyson at dysonanalysis.com. He interprets and consults on issues like this. I don’t know what his fee range is.

66

While I don’t disagree with your advice, and while I would generally use a different name brand oil, the CITGO oil she used, whether it was synthetic or not, met the GM4718M spec, which I think is the correct one for her engine. The oil itself should not have been the problem.

67

I’ve asked the OP, as have others, 3 damned times if they ever once raised the hood to inspect the oil level and there’s nothing but tap dancing around the answer.
The answer is obvious; the hood was NEVER raised and you can bet your bottom dollar that little red oil pressure lamp was illuminating before the engine went south.

68

I understand your point but it is the US government that is pushing the extended intervals for environmental reasons. They forced Subaru to extend theres to 7K or face penalties.

69

OK4450, she said that she only looked once herself, so you don’t need to keep pushing this issue anymore. I think we’ve gotten that point across quite well at this point.

Lets point her in the right path to follow from this point on.

BC.

70

I think its the oil change oil that is to blame, in this instance.

If the engine needs the GM4718M spec, then only a few oils meet that, and I doubt her oil change shop bulk oil is one of the qualifying oils on the GM list.

In fact, here’s a link for everyone to see on that oil spec:

http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/environment/maintenance/gm_approved_engine_oils.pdf

Note that there isn’t a single Citgo brand oil in the GM4718M list.

Every bottle of oil on the planet, pretty much meets the lower GM6094M spec, as far as I can tell, so the spec doesn’t seem to be that high, in my opinion. That one has two Citgo oils on it.

Hopefully she will see this, and choose one of those oils at the top of the list to use from now on.

BC.

71

If this problem were to be legitimately laid at GM’s feet then I would say the proper thing to do would be a Good Will warranty with GM picking up all or even half the tab.

However, based on not reading the owners manual and not doing what that manual states as to inspecting the oil level regularly and performing service more often than required this falls back onto the OP.

Let me pose another question. Has the OP stated to the dealer that they’re never raising the hood to check anything and if corporate GM gets involved is the OP going to state unequivocally to corporate GM the same thing?

72

“it does not say it is a requirement at each fuel fill and the dealership says when I bought and said yesterday the car’s OLM was designed to take that worry out of the requirements”

While I don’t want to call anyone a liar, I really doubt that someone at the dealership told the OP that the OLM made it unnecessary to check the dipstick. The OLM is supposed to give you guidance regarding when to change the oil, but the mathematical algorithm that is used to calculate oil change intervals (for better or for worse) has no idea about how much oil is left in your crankcase.

That is why there is no substitute for lifting the hood every 500-750 miles to check all fluids, and whether those 500-750 miles were accumulated in one day or in 3 months, the need to check all fluids remains vital.

To claim that the OLM eliminates the need to check the dipstick is just not realistic, and excuses like “the dipstick is short and difficult to access” just sound like pathetic excuses for not exercising normal due diligence.

While I am empathetic with the OP, I just believe that she is grasping at straws in order to avoid any personal responsibility for the situation.

As I have said before…the concept of personal responsibility is just about dead in this country nowadays.

73

If they ask her that question, and she answers it honestly, then she’s in trouble.
If, however, all they ask her for are the oil change receipts and history, which she has already provided, then they have to provide her a replacement engine.

Now we are in a sticky situation.

Here’s a question I have:

Has the oil change shop been putting in oil that meets the need of her truck?

Here’s the link to her owners manual:

http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/owners/manuals/2011/2011_chevrolet_traverse_owners.pdf

Page 320 is where the oil information for her truck starts at.
Page 321 shows that her engine oil must meet Dexos 1 spec, and be either a 0W-30 or a 5W-30 oil.
Page 323 explains the oil life monitoring system, and even tells you how to reset it after changing the oil.

The question I have, is simple:

Is the oil that the oil change shop has been using in Anne’s car meet the Dexos 1 spec?

If it doesn’t, would you then say that her engine should or should not be covered by GM?
Should it be covered by the oil change shop since they might not have been using oil that meets the proper spec?

Now this is a big leap of faith:

Lets say that her truck has never had a low oil level during her oil changes.
Just a big leap of faith, and join me on this, for the moment.

Lets say the oil was never low, and that Anne checked the oil every other week, or 1k miles, but the wrong spec was used, and was changed when the oil life monitor said to change it. Who’s fault would it be?

Who would you say should pick up the bill, then?

BC.

74

Has anyone considered the possibility that the oil change place didn’t actually change the oil?

75

Its a possibility, but not one that can be proven.

Unless you stand in front of the bay that they have your vehicle in, and watch them drain the oil, and watch what they pour in, how can you be sure of anything that is done by someone that isn’t you?

You pay someone for a service to be performed, you have the expectation that they in fact performed that service.

Its way too late for the OP to find this out.
They will say that they did, even if they didn’t.
She has receipts to say that they did.
She has Oil Life Monitor reset history to say that it was reset before the % was 0.

She can’t do much more than she already has, other than check her oil level.

BC.

76

If the wrong spec oil was used by the fast lube then they should be the ones to cover this problem but that’a assuming the oil spec was actually the cause of this problem.

The quesions I have are these.
Has the oil pan been pulled?
Is the pickup screen clogged?
Roughly how much oil was or is in the oil pan?

An engine seizure will only occur if the screen is clogged or if the oil level is at zero or very low; especially with a partially clogged screen.

I’m very curious as to whether or not anything has been said to the dealer about their failure to keep tabs on the oil level. My very strong gut feeling is that the answer is no as it’s pretty much human nature to whitewash (intentionally or not) any actions that may have contributed to the problem.

Maybe the OP could steer the service manager at the dealership to this thread and the SM could provide a few details about what they’ve found.

77

Its not in the OP’s best interest to point the service manager to this thread.
But, it would be nice to see what their idea of “sludge” is.

I’m worried that their idea of sludge is simple varnish on parts, as opposed to what we’ve seen of the thick tar buildup, like the pictures of that BMW that went 60k miles between oil changes. That’s gross negligence.

I’d love to see pictures of the oil pan, oil pickup, and the valve train.
That would tell me if the engine was actually sludged, or if there just was some other failure that caused her engine to stop.

BC.

78

Got it; I read past into the 6094 spec for Citgo. Thanks.

79

Unless you stand in front of the bay that they have your vehicle in, and watch them drain the oil, and watch what they pour in, how can you be sure of anything that is done by someone that isn’t you?

Actually, standing in front of the bay and watching the work is exactly what I do in that situation, although I haven’t been to a quick lube joint in years, and hopefully, will never go to one again.

You could mark the old oil filter before you go to the shop, so you can tell if they changed the filter. I saw a news reporter use this method to bust a shop on TV a long time ago. You can also take note of the level of the oil, and make sure it reads as full after you leave. I can probably also come up with some other ideas if I think about it, like finding a way to mark the oil filler cap so you can tell if its been removed.

I agree this is a moot point for the sake of finding fault, but it might be worth doing in the future, especially if she insists on going back to the same establishment, which I think is a terrible idea.

80

Just got back. Thanks for keeping this going. It is a hard thing to do now to check all those things beause stranded on the side of the road, it was towed to the nearest dealership 3 hours from my house and that dealership changed out the injection system, drained the oil and put a new oil fiter on it under warranty and sent me homw. But 2 hous into the 3 hbours trip home, it did the same thing and OnStar told me to continue driving it home but immediately to the delaership which I did. The engine and everything associated with it is sitting on the floor under the car at the dealership