@“the same mountainbike” - I agree with your point overall. Living in similar conditions (a lot of icy and snowy roads) I would make two observations. One - all drivers need to slow down and leave more room in front of their cars than they do. Lack of time and space are the enemies of ALL braking, ABS or not. Most winter accidents occur because people are just too close for the conditions. Two - given that you are leaving sufficient space (based on “one” above), ABS gives you great control of your vehicle IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DRIVE WITH THE ABS ENGAGED. That last bit is the one that is the most difficult as most people try to pump the brakes and hold the steering wheel straight. You have to keep your foot firmly on the brake and steer (to the best of your ability) into the safest position.
I find the traction control much more annoying than the ABS in the winter. It frequently cuts power on me when I need it most, such as right at the top of the driveway trying to get out on the road. Then I have to back down, turn off the traction control, and then try again.
Now, it is hard to prove, but my thoughts about ABS vs non-ABS accident rates are explainable by another theory. Totally my own, mind you.
The data shows single car accidents go UP and multiple car accidents go DOWN. Drivers will do ANYthing to avoid hitting another car. Before ABS, how many have you seen the rear-most accident car with the wheels turned to the side buried in the trunk of the forward car? With skidding tires, the car rear-ends another car causing a multiple car accident report. With ABS, the car avoids the other car but hits a guardrail or other roadside obstacle thus causing a single car accident.
The real-world data has no way to capture that.
I used to be an ABS doubter because I trusted my skills more than the ECU. Test data eventually proved me wrong. These days, after working developing such systems, I am convinced ABS, and stability controls can do more than I can with the available physics.
Bloody_knuckles, I agree with your observation… people need to slow down in bad conditions.
However I do know how to drive with ABS, and understand the system intricately. But the fact is that on icy surfaces it simply removes my ability to stop reasonably. I have a hill just around the corner, wherein I need to make a sharp left in the middle, and when it’s icy I no longer even bother to try. The ABS engages, the wheels keep pulsating, and the car just rolls on by… at very slow speeds. This is the first car I’ve owned with ABS and it’s the only one I can’t make the corner with. I also had an incident wherein I cut right to back into my driveway, the ABS kicked in and I just kept rolling to the curb.
And before anybody asks, yes, it’s working properly. The extremely low friction surface simply creates the same effect as the gravel surface in the study previously discussed… it significantly increases stopping distance. On the gravel surface it was 27% longer. On ice I suspect it’s even longer. But the study didn’t test on ice.
I should point out too that the very reason the study was done was to try to determine why ABS equipped cars were having higher rates of single car accidents. NHTSA apparently felt the difference in accident rates was significant enough to try to figure out why it was happening.
Bottom line is, my experiences with ABS have caused me not to like it. For those that do, that’s great. For me, I’ll “pass”.
TSM, The wet Jennite surface mentioned in the report has the same coefficient of friction as ice. It is generally more consistent than ice itself and usable year round. ABS did make a substantial improvement on wet Jennite.
That NHTSA study involved 1993-1997 model year vehicles, those early ABS systems weren’t very impressive.
the same mountainbike: I recall some studies indicating that ABS, traction/stability control, and airbags could be increasing accidents by diminishing drivers survival instinct. Convincing the ignorant that they can now drive faster, distracted, and more reckless without risk of injury or death. Current technology is giving us lane departure/vehicle in blind spot warning. Hands off parallel parking, automatic braking, and coming soon 100% autonomous no driver required vehicles. Have you ever had a computer fail/crash? I don’t think I could accurately count the times. In my aviation safety training/certification the number one killer was becoming complacent. You, I and many others on this forum are becoming dinosaurs. We actually know how to focus on driving, obey traffic signals, adjust speed depending on visibility and road conditions, stay well within our and the machines limits, check before changing lanes, parallel park, and threshold brake. We still make mistakes but can sometimes correct them in time.
I did a little more internet reading on ABS this afternoon. I know internet research has limitations, but the general sense I got was that ABS wasn’t near the success it was expected to be. The sources I read were dated 2009 and were based on additional studies done after the late '90s NTHSA studies. Many of the conclusions were similar to the late '90s studies.
I still think on average the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but it would be nice to have the ability to turn it off, like in the situations mountainbike cited. You could be navigate the same conditions with and without ABS engaged and select the better option.
Luckily the only time abs has kicked in for me is on snowy stops, yes I do believe the stopping distance is increased, but I always allow for extra stopping distance in deprecated road conditions, Now the other thing that has saved me from getting rear ended is leaving wiggle room, 15 ft to pull ahead if needed, or a lane out option when I see someone that may kiss my rear end because of their inability to stop, just last week had to pull through pedestrian stripes and beyond, but not far enough to be a hazard to cross traffic, saved the hassle of an accident, be alert and watch the rear view mirror!
I wonder if there’s been a statistically significant decrease in the number of automobile accidents since the intro of ABS? You’d think if ABS works as it advocates say it does, that the number of accidents would appreciably decrease, what with all the ABS vehicles on the roads these days. I’m not exactly sure what stat you’d look at though. All accidents? Minor accidents which resulting in damage more than a certain dollar amount? Only fatal accidents?
I agree with TSM completely on this. I am basing my dislike of ABS on over 3 million miles of driving through some of the worst winter conditions in the country (obviously I was not driving in winter conditions for 7 months of the year) and have found that ABS is terrible in ultra low traction conditions. On glare or black ice ABS can stop you from slowing at all, just a few inches of fresh fallen snow can be very treacherous at right around the freezing point and the worst is a cold rain with dropping temps when the road flash freezes in an instant.
My point is that these are the only conditions where I need some help, and instead of helping the ABS makes it worse. I don’t need any help in dry or just wet conditions.
When I have taught other people to drive truck or bus I always tell new drivers that air is the best safety device, the more of it you have around your vehicle the better, especially to the front. You cannot relax behind the wheel until you have no on near you.
Mustangman, you’ve posited an interesting theory on why the data shows what it does. While I don’t know that it changes driving behaviors overall as Meanjoe suggested (although his theory is a valid one), perhaps it does change responses in those critical last seconds. It’s unfortunate that NHTSA didn’t commission a study comprehensive enough to determine the real meat behind the empirical data.
George has asked an interesting question as well, with some interesting subcategories. ABS has been around a while now, well before other modern technologies such as stability control. Has there been any decrease in accident rates attributable to ABS?
Like Barky, I try to always leave plenty of room in every direction possible, and always plan ahead, and have fortunately thus been able to drive for… 48+ (man, that went fast) years without hitting anyone else, but I still would like to be able to turn it off.
While I appreciate the Cf of wet jennite, it ain’t ice. And it doesn’t include all of the variations normal to icy streets. I’ve run lab experiments using substitute materials and discovered when moving forward to testing with the read deal that the results were not the same. Happens all the time in research and validation studies. I have great respect for NHTSA designed studies, but the real world doesn’t always replicate the controlled field tests. As mustangman pointed out, wet jennite is more consistent than ice itself. That makes it great for controlled testing, but may not transfer to real life.
I think in the end there will continue to be opposing “camps” in the ABS debate. I know that some others agree with me and some others feel I’m doing myself a disservice by compromising my safety. I respect that, even though in the end I’d still like to turn mine off.
For those who want to turn off their ABS. It shouldn’t be that difficult to install a switch in the power feed. You will probably end up having the ABS light permanently on, but that should be a small price to pay for those who don’t want ABS at all. And if the light bothers you remove it, just beware at safety inspection time if your state requires it.
Three points:
- I meant without butchering the wiring harness. I never butcher harnesses.
- NH will not pass a vehicle with the ABS light illuminated. Being aware that the car’s original safety systems must be intact and mine is not is not the same as passing inspection. It wouldn’t pass.
- removing the light will not eliminate failure codes in the ECU, a download of which is part of NH inspections.
I appreciate the suggestions, but they bring other problems. I just live with the ABS. In icy conditions I just make decisions with the knowledge that it might engage, such as deciding not to use that hill by my house. I know from experience what conditions will cause it to engage, so I avoid those conditions.