This is not a matter of luck or even tender loving care. It is mostly DESIGN QUALITY, something most Japanese manufacturers excel at. That is followed by Honda’s SIX SIGMA quality stadard for parts, followed by careful assembly.
A GM executive once admitted that one day in ten they build cars as good as Honda and Toyota, and that’s only assembly quality, not DESIGN QUALITY.
Don’t expect this excellent performance with a Mitsubishi car or an American designed and rushed into production Nissan, Honda or Toyota full size pickup.
If US car companies had a longer term focus, the gap would close quicker.
OK, I have to throw in my 2 cents worth! I would NOT base a purchase on the alleged superiority of Japanese VS American VS European, or the other way around. the initial quality of all are so close that it is not worth basing a purchase on. That said, I believe therre are certain manufacturers that are better than others. You can decide which ones for yourselves. When it comes to the long term price of ownership, I believe some of the higher rated manufactures products are quite expensive to own. The price of maintenance on a BMW or Toyota is likely to be significantly more than the maintenance on a Chevy or Ford. The amreican manufactures have tried to reduce maintenamce to a minumum, many of the overseas manufactures require lots of maintenamce and the dealers use it as a profit center. In the end, I would suggest you buy the one you like best, and enjoy it. But, if you really do not like cars anyway, and cosider them nothing more than a transportation appliance, I would suggest a Chevy or Ford. Low maintenance, and if service is required, there is a dealer in every town. That is not the case with a lot of the others.
OP, here are my comments for what they’re worth. As a long time tech, of the “foreign car” variety (Honda, VW, SAAB, Nissan, Subaru), I will say that while seeing the cars day in and day out I have not seen any difference in the complaints lodged against any particular make. It’s always been six of one, half dozen of the other.
While working at multi-line dealers (exc. Nissan which was solo) the shop would have as many Hondas and Subarus in it as VWs and SAABs. Each have their own unigue problems and in spite of the Subaru loyalty by their owners I will say that Subarus have provided me my biggest paychecks and why is that? Maintenance heavy and somewhat trouble prone. (And I’m not a Subaru hater; have owned 3 of them.)
It’s fashionable to really bash the so-called Big Three cars, especially from back in the 70s, as being slugs and trouble prone. Sure these Big Three cars had teething problems. Thank your local EPA and your neighbor who demands increased fuel economy and clean air. At the time, this was the best technology available for the current situation. Thank the Europeans for promoting ECU controlled fuel injection, which has cleaned things up a lot.
Many of these problems were related to emission heavy carburetion, vacuum hoses, and whatnot. The part that is never mentioned is that the Asian cars suffered the same problems but seem to get a pass. I have yet to ever see a post on any forum about this particular area unless I’m the one that made it. I kind of feel that I can speak with authority on this because I’m the poor schmuck who had to wrestle those greasy pigs.
And as I’ve always stated, Consumer Reports, J.D. Power, or any other survey can be used as a small tool in formulating a decision but there are too many unknowns on any complaint, etc. to decide whether the car is at fault, or as many times happens, the owner is at fault. I’ve read auto complaints on other sites including the EPA and combined with what I’ve personally heard over the years, some of those car owners just amaze me to put it politely.
If you re-read my posts…and my posts in other threads where we discussed this…I DON’T disagree with you. I firmly believe that EDUCATION is far more important and our government doesn’t spend nearly enough on it. And you are 100% correct…the top tier students have a lot more opportunities. If you’re a good B+ student and only score 1400 on your SAT’s you better start saving because there is no scholarship money for you. Take out student loans and even at a state school expect to owe $200k+ when you graduate in 4 years. My oldest got a Full ride to MIT (they like students who score 1570 on their SATs). My son has been offered a couple Scholarships to BC and Syracuse University. Was accepted to Harvard, but we make too much money to get any grant from them. If he chooses to go to Harvard…there goes my savings…
Some state school programs are decent…NY has a very very good state school system (SUNY). Far better then New Hampshire…and cheaper. But you have to live in NY and the taxes are so much higher then in NH that they pretty much offset the cost difference.
I have had 2 Japeneese cars a 300ZX and a Honda Civic. With the ZX it didn’t have big problems but when it did it was really expensive re: 200.00 for 1 injector. The Honda didn’t have big problems but it must have been through 5 exhaust systems, twice as many brakes, something is still wrong with the fuel system and the air condioning system, while the Ford I owned the same lenth of time has only had a starter and a sensor for the air bag.
My daughter lives in NH too. Agrees…you get what you pay for, and NH may have no sales tax and lower taxes otherwise (not property tax though) but stuggles with educational opportunities.
Daughter wanted to continue to Med school…dad couldn’t afford it. Son was Math major and transfered to business (for the money) , Would have loved to see a tuition for committment program and we would have had another doctor and math person instead of a therapist and store manager.
I agree whole heartedly. I have always had used Toyota trucks…cheap brother keeps buying used Rangers. Over the years, he has spent much less in ownership costs. The difference is…my trucks never let me down miles from home (his has).
Other bros. buys used Taurus’s and spends much less as well by not trying to get more than 150K out of them…and again, breaks down more often,but with much cheaper repair. So if it’s money you want to save, a smart buy in an American brand may do it. Just have a good tow man on your cell or AAA.
My daughter lives in NH too. Agrees…you get what you pay for, and NH may have no sales tax and lower taxes otherwise (not property tax though)
We don’t have a sales tax…or income tax…and property tax is higher then many states it’s still far cheaper then NY.
Our state school system UNH is OK. You get what you pay for. We only have 3 main campuses. But we’re also a very small state…1.3m people. At least we live close to Boston where there’s a lot of EXCELLENT colleges to choose from. The only really good college we have in NH is Dartmouth. Boston has at least 5…and I actually live closer to Boston then Hanover.
NH does have some EXCELLENT private high-schools…and also very expensive…$30k+/yr.
I will only say being a UNH engineering alumni that the school is pretty good. Early in my career changed a few times the UNH alumni factor was very strong in hiring within New England and I got my foot in door many places unrelated to my degree itself. I personally do not think it makes much difference what school you attend once you get your first job as experience counts more than anything else thereafter.
it seems like American cars use much cheaper materials. The interiors always seem to fall apart after only a few years. I don’t think I’ve seen a Ford over 3 yrs old that has a headliner thats not starting to come off. I owned a plymouth and never again will I buy an american car. It died at like 83k. My subaru on the other hand ran with no problems until 260k, when I traded it in. Hondas are good too.
I’m not saying UNH is bad…but it doesn’t compare to other state colleges. NH just doesn’t put the money into the systems like other states do. I’ve worked with plenty of UNH grads. CEO of my company is a UNH grad. And getting your first job is a lot easier with a degree from Suny-Potsdam or Suny-Brockport then it is from UNH. Once you have experience they don’t even look at your college records. Just past experience.
Ron, that comment was directed to FilmProf, who seems to have vanished.
I agree that the Japanese corporate culture is different and that they have built a good reputation for building reliable cars, I just don’t like blanket statements. I’ve had about the same personal experience with American made vehicles and Japanese made vehicles as far as build quality goes. The American made vehicles were always cheaper to fix and cheaper for parts.
But this is just my experience, and it works for me. I think someone like ok4450 who has seen and worked on countless vehicles of different makes has more authority to make experience-based opinions of build quality.
Your informal poll based upon cars that you worked on seems more like…you got the business because of your expertice. That would skew your sample if was you they wanted. You really can’t say how many times the cars were worked on elsewhere. I would be more flexable with work on my American cars, but only the best touched my Toyotas…sound familiar ?
OK4450 reports some interesting observations. One thing I have observed in reading Consumer Reports is that a good repair record doesn’t particularly correlate with owner satisfaction. There are certain cars that have a high owner satisfaction and a rather dismal repair record, and there are some cars that are just the opposite. I can relate to this. I have owned three minivans. The one that I liked best was the Ford Aerostar, and yet I had major problems with it (new engine–fortunately under warranty and also a transmission rebuild again under warranty). The Ford Windstar that replaced the Aerostar was pretty much trouble-free, and the Chevrolet Uplander that replaced the Windstar has been o.k. to this point.
I do think that the Toyotas make a good first impression. We also own a Toyota 4Runner that my wife drives. The fit and finish and overall feel seem better than the minivans I have owned with the American nameplate. I do remember in 1970 a fellow graduate student, who was on the road supervising student teachers, had a Datsun that was giving him a lot of grief. He traded it for a Ford Maverick which he thought was great.
Problem is we aren’t talking about 0-2 out of 10 vs 0-5 out of 10… the gaps for specific areas are MUCH smaller than that.
In most areas, if you look at CR, the problem rate for a new car is below 1% (link below). In fact, for 2007 models, the worst problem rate is for body integrity at 3% (squeaks and rattles). For a 10 year old car, the AVERAGE major engine problem rate is 1 in 25 vehicles (4%).
This is how, after 10 years of ownership, while Toyotas definitely still look good in their ratings, the difference between Toyota and Ford is actually about 40 problems per 100 vehicles, or 0.4 extra repairs per vehicle. These aren’t necessarily new transmissions/engines either, remember - the average repair cost is still around $350 or so.
And that’s for those vehicles built 10 years ago, if you assume that their measurement is perfect. Considering that they ignore problems such as Honda transmissions that failed but were covered by recall, and that any survey has statistical error, this really isn’t the case…
So my answer? It isn’t that the reliability of Hondas and Toyotas is a myth. It’s that the perceived low quality of the competition IS a myth. The vast majority of cars out there are VERY good, so buy what you want and maintain it well. That last part is more important than brand for achieving reliability…
Just thought I would add a few more comments from a tech perspective.
Consumer Reports, J.D. Power, etc. really grate on me because when something is logged on no one knows how a question is phrased, if a complaint has any legitimacy, etc.
The unknown story behind a complaint can sometimes be 180 off and does not reflect on vehicle quality at all. This occurs with any brand though, be it N. Amer., Asian, or European. Without going into details, a few examples.
Woman buys new car, thinks we are too expensive on an oil change, and proceeds to have the Jiffy Lube wipe her engine out an hour later. Whose fault? Us and the car itself.
Air Force officer curses his car because he ran it out of gas not once, but THREE times in less than 2 weeks. (Car ran great, no problems.)
Woman slides her 2 week old car on the ice and into the ditch, ruining the RF fender and suspension. Curses car because warranty won’t pay for it.
Gentleman buys new car, has early oil change at the JL, which omitted the drain plug gasket leading to a leak. 10k miles later (after never checking the oil or changing it again) the engine blew up. Whose fault? The car of course.
I’ve got a million of those and this is why CR, Power, and whatnot leave a bit lacking. One never knows why those complaints are lodged.
If one compares a new SAAB owner to a new Honda owner you can bet that the SAAB guy is going to be much more nitpicky, even over perceived problems that do not exist, and will have more of a tendency to complain.
One time a very well to do lady bought a new conversion van from us (weird match to be honest) and decided after 3 or 4 days that this van was a royal PITA to jockey around in city traffic. She brought in it with not one, but FIVE complete repair orders full of complaints (about 35-40 gripes altogether). About 2 were legit; the rest was carping over nothing. She then demanded we take the van back at full price and when this did not work she was standing on the side of the 4 lane at 7 the next morning waving at every car and holding a large 4 x6 sign with a lemon painted on it.
Wonder how she replied to CR?
As I’ve stated before, I think the Asians build fine cars but the domestics get trashed unnecessarily. Domestic trucks are extremely popular where I live for example and believe me, these trucks take a beating due to high mileage, environmental conditions, and the fact they’re generally pulling heavy loads (1 ton hay bales, stock trailers with half a dozen steers, etc.). If these vehicles were trouble prone I assure you these chintzy farmers and ranchers would not be buying them and the BBB would be clogged with complaints. That is not the case.
The lack of checks on validity of complaints is especially important to note when you look at the rates of failure at issue. According to Consumer Reports’ own data, almost every system on 1 year old cars has a 1% or lower failure rate. The highest rate is just 3%.
When you combine that with their sample sizes of around 300 per model per model year, the actual complaint rates in each system are so low that we’re talking just 1 or 2 complaints comprising the entire list of complaints for an AVERAGE new car…
Just to add. The absolute biggest reason I’ve seen for people dissing their cars has been because they discover that “warranty” will not pay for oil changes, scheduled maintenance, etc.
I can’t even count how many times I’ve seen this. For some reason many people assume, incorrectly, that “warranty” pays for those things and when reality hits, the complaining, cursing, BBB complaints, and threats to consumer agencies start.
I’ve seen people threaten to quit making their new car payments because of a simple oil change not being paid for. So what. Don’t pay and the repop guy will be after the car.
