"Cars like the Ford Fusion? They’re made in Mexico. "
What’s wrong with Mexico?
“…based upon these circles that are filled with either black (worse) or red (better)…”
I’ve often wondered about the relationship between the dots and CR’s overall reliability. For several years during the early 2000’s by 1998 Regal ranked below the Camry and Accord in overall reliability, but it had all red circles; full or half. Yet the other two cars had a few empty circles and a couple half black ones. When you figure this disparity out, please let me know. I’m sure it’s obvious, but I’m in the flash card section.
Toyota’s 22R engine, used in so many of its vehicles for so many years, was exceptionally reliable and gave hundreds of thousands of miles of service. Ford’s 4.9L truck engine was phenomenally strong and reliable, I personally drove a 1981 E-150 400,000 miles with no engine problems. And as for Ford, a fleet of 6 mid 1990s Ford Aerotar vans were driven by college age girls more than 10,000 miles each month and serviced by me. When the contract was lost these vans had from 300,000 to 400,000 miles each and none had ever required a tow. Only one had the engine replaced. Maintenance-maintenance-maintenance.
The older Volvos and Mercedes Benzes seemed to be as basic to diagnose and repair as an 8N Ford tractor but my experience with them is limited.
While in Japan for a short time in the 1960s I saw that they don’t drive what they sell us. Or they didn’t then, anyway. Subarus then were 2-strokes. Pickups were tricycles, some with 2 cylinder diesels requiring pulling a rope to start. And most young Japanese wanted American cars, especially Mustangs, but Japanese law required paying Ford’s list price plus a high duty in cash, up front, to order the car. On arrival some weeks later each American car (new) was individually inspected and certified for a considerable fee. Needless to say, few American cars were on the street.
Also, Japanese cars are usually junked at 100,000km because of a required inspection/recertification on their domestic cars.
That’s true. I still have a '74 Corolla that is a really quite amazing car for its time. It has a 1.6L cross-flow head motor that’s rated at over 100HP, which I think is about the same as the same vintage 6-cylinder engines with three times the displacement that were in most big domestic cars. And the Corolla gets around 30MPG on the highway! Of course, what it was competing with was the VW Super Beetle, which also had a 1.6L engine, but it only did 57 horsepower and was a far flimsier car.
I don’t know why those old Toyotas don’t have more of an enthusiast base-- mine is a really fun car that I’ve really enjoyed owning.
I don’t know why those old Toyotas don’t have more of an enthusiast base-- mine is a really fun car that I’ve really enjoyed owning.
The ONE bad thing of the Japanese cars from that era were they RUSTED OUT VERY QUICKLY. They didn’t get it fixed until the late 80’s. They were GREAT mechanically…but they rusted out faster then ANY American car on the road…Even the Dodge Aspen or Plymouth Volare’.
Just like it’s unfair to say all American named plate cars are less reliable. it’s unfair to say Japanese cars are all more…see Nissan products, esp, Titan and their mini vans…Pontiac makes a great Vibe, and it really doesn’t matter who helped. Toyota should take no more credit than Pntiac whoes willing to sell it under their name plate. Brand name reliability is difficult to generalize with except for Toyota and Honda.
I hear you and wasn’t picking on you…just the idea that there really are no American/Japanese or European made cars. There are just parent car companies that have American/Japanese and European names that make or even subcontract cars to be made for them; who knows where. Even Toyota is contracting one of it’s Scions to be made in Korea or elsewhere.
That’s why I have to agree that model surveys that CR does is about as reliable as you can get.
The question of whether Japanese cars are still better than Domestics seems to be getting grayer and grayer all the time.I myself have owned nothing except Toyotas. None of them have ever been in the shop and all have lasted well over 200k. But on the other hand, I know three people with Chevy trucks that each have amazingly good reliability. One has 256,000 miles, the second has 340,000 miles, and the last with 287,000 miles. My Grandmother has a Buick Lesabre with 172,000 miles. I know many others with tons of miles on their GM or Ford cars and trucks. But I also know of quite a few where they simply blew up at 50k.
I will say that I looked at a Chevy Malibu awhile back and the quality in my opinion was as nice or nicer than a Camry. The fit and finish was very nice. I’m still hesitant to trust anything other than the big two from Japan, but I feel less strongly so with every passing year since it seems like most anything Toyota makes today simply looks boring and bland.
Until GM/Ford and Chryco make fundamental changes in their management structure I don’t see them ever catching Toyota and Honda or Nissan in quality.
From Plant managers and up their salary is based on quarterly results. The plant manager has a certain budget. It’s NOT in his best interest to make changes to the plant even though it may increase quality by a factor of 10…IF it means these changes will go over his budget. And he’ll get a certain percentage of every dollar he stays UNDER budget.
There is NO incentive to build a better product. They are very very short sighted. They look at the next 3 months ONLY. GM and Ford do have R&D that is completely different from the rest of the company…but once the R&D goes to production…it falls in this trap of making the car the cheapest way possible to maximize profit. This has to change in order for them to survive.
Now with a recession looming and auto sales down you’ll see a change in policy. This happened back in the early 90’s. During that time GM, Ford and Chryco did make some good changes and quality went up. But when the economy turned around…back to old tricks and quality went down again.
Until they make some DRASTIC changes I don’t see them ever catching up…It’s damn shame too.
This is an interesting thread. I had a 1976 Corolla that I bought new. I drove it and drove it and drive it and drove it…until I graduated college, married, and had my first little one…whereupon I discovered how difficult it was to put a baby in a car seat in the rear of a 2-door Corolla! Nothing ever broke on it. My needs just outgrew it. I had bought that by trading on a 1972 Vega…on which every single major system had failed catastrphically. I traded it after the rear axle came sliding out of the housing…yup, that was a Vega weakness.
I traded my beloved Corolla for a new 1982 Civic 4-door. I drove that completely without a hint of a problem until we had our second and needed more room. I traded that for a 1986 Toyota Van. Drove that for 141,000 trouble free miles.
Along the way I also had a 1995 Saturn. It had to go back for a number of warranty issues, and ultimately blew it’s headgasket…twice.
I also had a 1989 Toyota Pickup with the 22R engine. I gave it to my daughter a few years ago at 295,000 miles. It got hit and totalled a little over year ago at 338,000 miles. The engine internals, the drive train, and the chassis were still solid and all original (except the timing chain).
That’s been my personal experience. Take from it what you choose.
As it’s been said, properly maintaining a car will lead to better performance down the road as it ages. And a person driving a Mercedes will tend to be a bit pickier than a person driving a Honda. Every shake, rattle and other noises will likely have the Mercedes owner taking it to the shop to find out what it is.
I don’t think random meant anything by it. I believe he is saying some domestics are not made in the USA and not all foriegn makes are made outside the USA.
I will say that I looked at a Chevy Malibu awhile back and the quality in my opinion was as nice or nicer than a Camry. The fit and finish was very nice. I’m still hesitant to trust anything other than the big two from Japan, but I feel less strongly so with every passing year since it seems like most anything Toyota makes today simply looks boring and bland.
Good observation. The new Malibu appears to be a quality car with good looks. GM finally woke up and designed a car that is not boring looking.
Yesterday’s tomahtoe’s, Mike. Things have changed in a big way. GM discovered that there is money to be made in cars as well as trucks. especially since their truck fleet will be obsoleted by the new CAFE regulations.
Sorry I don’t see it. Managers salaries are still tied to NEXT QUATERS PROFITS. I don’t see a change until they change their management Incentive program. Here’s a typical management decision. “I can change vendors for this bearing that will cut my operating budget by $2m. So what if the bearings are of less quality. It will mean a increase in $200k in salary next year for me. And I need it because I’m retiring in 2 years.”
While I generally agree with your statement, one missing factor is design and manufacture. My GM cars probably got lots more attention than my Toyotas and my Honda, yet the reliabilty difference was truely dramatic. No car will survive neglect, but no amount of attention will compensate for design and/or manufacturing deficiencies.
True reliability comes from proper maintenance of a car designed and manufactured properly to begin with. And consumer publication comparisons combined with reputation and experience are the only way to really enhance your probability of getting one of those.
Car quality and reliability is mostly a function of design, followed by the quality of the components that go into the vehicle, and finally the assembly quality.
The Ford Fusion is a major step in qualility improvement by Ford. Basic design, quality parts); it is also assembled in Ford’s best plant worldwide, Hermosillo, Mexico.
By and large, Japanese designed cars have:
Very good to excellent design, with very little corner-cutting that was the Hallmark of US manufacturers
Very tough parts manufacturing standards; Honda has Six Sigma, where you are allowed one bad part in 344,000 or so.
Very good assembly quality.
It does not really matter where a Japanese car is made, the same processes apply. I have ridden in some really exellent Toyotas manuafactured in Thailand from Thai-made parts.
European manufacturers have not mastered the design quality yet, especially in electrical and electronic parts. They furthermore do not have the Japanese Six Sigma statistical quality control yet. BMW has shown the most improvement in this area.
Assembly quality in European-built cars is generally good, but hides the other flaws.
A Volkswagen built in Mexico suffers from inadequate engineering, poor quality Mexican parts (especially plastic ones), and sloppy assembly. A Nissan built in Mexico is a very good car, by comparison.