What other routine maintainence items, besides timing belt/WP replacement; if missed just once; can ruin or severely damage an engine? Also, it’s not uncommon at all for belts to go before their replacement is due, causing thousands of dollars of damage. With chain and gears you can check the wear of the chain periodically and know when to replace it in time, without having to
replace a perfctly good water pump and tensioner; plus; the chain and gears, if steel, will most certainly last longer than a timing belt. On some 3.0L Mtsubishi engines I have seen merely the failure of the serpentine belt tensioner cause the serpentine belt to get wrapped around the crankshaft and pushed through the hole in the plastic timing cover, forcing the timing belt off its
sprocket and severely damaging the engine at minimum. I saw this twice in 7 years at a Chrysler dealer but with 12 techs it could and probably did happen more times than I was aware of. With chain and gears no way could the serpentine belt push through the metal, sealed timing cover. The “best possible scenario” of just under a penny per mile is most likely beaten easily by a chain and
gears setup, which absolutely, positively beats the ruined interference engine w/timing belt, which has to be the exception to the rule that newer cars are generally more reliable. I asked the question on another post and I’ll ask it here: What is the rationale for the use of timing belts besides less noise and weight?
I didn’t think of that, it’s so obvious. I wonder how many big wigs from the car companies have had the kind of timing belt disasters described here? But for them it’s not a disaster is it? ($)
I think you have it backwards. People keep their cars longer now because they can. They actually last as long or longer than we want to keep them. I think in the 60s you had to buy a new car every couple years whether or not you wanted to.
seems kinda weird to see these 50 year old, single owner cars at car shows though, makes you wonder.
Are you well informed of the different catagories at eBay you can auction your Western Auto radio? There is eBay Motors; but, you may do better in the antiques.
Good Luck.
Why, exactly, do car engines last longer loday w/o rebuild? I was told that metallurgy was pretty established stuff for a while now. Is it that the right alloys for low wear are now economically feasible, is it improved lubricants, or is it something else? I’ve been told clearances are tighter in today’s engines, but why? I’m assuming the technology for machining close-fitting parts with accuracy isn’t terribly new, either.
Car engines had to be better built when the emission regulations came into force. Valves had to last at least 50,000 miles, ignition had to be more reliable, fuel/air mixture had to be more precise, etc. So we now have hardened valve seats, better piston rings, electronic ignition, computerized engine controls, etc.
The much larger part of engine longevity increase has been the spectacular increase in lube oil quality. When I was a kid in college, multigrade oils just came into being, and the term “heavy duty” was applied to oils with various additives. Single grade oils without any additives would quickly wear out an engine; a Chevy 6 would need rings and valves at about 80,000 miles or so.
Consumer Reports conducted oil tests in 1984, and found many oils out of spec. with respect to viscosity, an important quality. Texaco was one of the worst offenders. A while back, they tested many oils again, and found that all oils stayed within spec. on viscosity and other key characteristics. Even Walmart housebrands are now good and exceed big name oils performance of 20 years ago. The various organizations that set oil quality standards have greatly tightened up the tests so there are very few off-spec products anymore.
Today’s oils allow us to start the car in cold weather, and get oil to the bearings and valve gear in 20 seconds or so. That same oil allows us to drive through Arizona in July without worrying about it thinning out and losing its “lubricity”.
Engine oil is about 25% additives,such as anti-wear, detergent,dipersant, Ph stabilizers, and so on.
The perplexing part is how many perfectly sane Americans try to save a few dollars by stretching their oil change interval at the expense severely cutting the life of their engines. Quality lubricating oil is the best value for money on the planet!
seems kinda weird to see these 50 year old, single owner cars at car shows though, makes you wonder.
It doesn’t make me wonder. There would have to be a lot more of them around than there are to impress me. How many units of that particular model were manufactured? How many that were not wrecked were retired before they reached 100,000 miles? The fact that a few still exists isn’t much more than a testament to the owner’s care. Heck, the 1969 Dodge Dart that I learned to drive on in 1989 was still being driven by my brother in 1995. That is only a testament to his frugal nature and the fact that he constantly had work done to prolong its life, not the durability of the Dart.
If you want to collect and maintain a 50 year old car, great. If I had the time, I would love to do that myself. However, in terms of getting to and from work each day and keeping my car out of the shop and on the road, a modern car does a better job. For getting from point A to point B without hassle, it is a no-brainer.
You CAN sell me on the value of collecting and driving old cars to have fun and to save money. You WILL NEVER convince me that older cars are more reliable than new ones. You would be fighting against all of my experience and all of the statistics that are tabulated by anyone who tracks frequency of automotive repairs. Pick any car from the 1960s…any car. Find out how many miles the average car of that model accumulated. Find out how many non-maintenance repairs were required per mile on a per car average. Compare that to any mass produced car made after 2000. Tell me if they even come close. Even the technology used to make tires has improved. Your chances of having to change a flat have gone way down.
You know, I can understand why you feel the way you do. Car owners from decades past fell in love with their cars. Now they remember them with nostalgia. They don’t remember all those times they got stranded by the side of the road because the car overheated or because they got a flat tire. Memory is a funny thing. You don’t dwell on the negative aspects, especially where love is concerned.
I think today’s cars last longer because of overseas competition too. Reliability is a big factor in competition between automotive manufacturers. For example, if my neighbor’s Datsun hadn’t lasted so much longer than his Dodge back in the 1980s, reliability might not be what it is today.
Auto manufacturers produce what we seem to want and that appears to be IMAGE. There are performance IMAGE,economy IMAGE, ecology IMAGE, high status iMAGE, diminuative status IMAGE, etc. And with computerized accuracy they can meet the buying public’s shallow expectations closely with a precise rate of mechanical failure and planned obsolescence. Ease of service and repair don’t seem to be on the drawing board anywhere. Neither is longevity.
It is disappointing, a 200K vehicle life was a given 20+ years ago if you bought a half decent car and made any effort to preserve it. Now we have much more complex cars that aren’t cost effective to repair after that mileage anyway, they have essentially become disposable commodities with a design life of only a couple of 100K. There is no reason not to build a vehicle that would actually be serviceable and would last much longer. Apparently the public (which has the attention span of a ferret on crack), is willing to put up with the currently available cars because they trade them every few years anyway. I don’t know if it is really a matter of “better” or “worse,” it’s more a matter of selling a different type of product. It does appear that the public has gotten what they asked for, and what they are willing to pay for.
“…a 200K vehicle life was a given 20+ years ago if you bought a half decent car and made any effort to preserve it.”
When you say “preserve” do you mean properly maintaining the car and taking it to the shop ten or fifteen times for repairs throughout its life? Maybe the public “is willing to put up with” cars that will last just as long with vastly fewer trips to the shop for repairs? Yes, your car is probably easier to fix, and I know you do most of the repairs yourself, but this member of the public is willing to “put up with” cars that don’t need to be repaired as often. Such is the burden of progress.
I have a feeling that even if automotive technology hadn’t significantly changed, you would still sound like my grandmother when she said “I liked it better the way it used to be in the good old days! We didn’t have running water and we didn’t need it! We all took baths in the same washtub using the same water after we heated it on the stove!”
“When you say “preserve” do you mean properly maintaining the car and taking it to the shop ten or fifteen times for repairs throughout its life?”
When I say “preserve,” I mean preserve indefinitely (like I “preserve” my house, keeping it as close to perfect as feasible). How many times is your house required to be repaired “throughout its life?” Silly question, isn’t it.
Hopefully, my vehicle “life” is long enough that it is in the shop a lot more than 10 or 15 more times (it’s only 26 years old now). Assuming a reasonable life expectancy of 40 more years (mine, not the car’s) and a couple of trips to the shop per year, that’s probably closer to 80 - 100 additional “repairs” per car while I have them. On the other hand, I expect my new DVD player and my dishwasher to have 0 repairs, I will simply throw them away the first time they break.
Given the choice between bringing my cars to the shop 100 more times over the next 40 years and having to buy some new POS every few years, I’ll keep mine. As another benefit, it’s significantly cheaper to keep mine; I can spend an average or $3-4000 per year on my car (about what I spend) indefinitely and not even come close to the cost of buying new disposable cars (maybe $50K plus a trade) every few years.
If “automotive technology hadn’t significantly changed” I might be satisfied to buy new cars. Personally, I’ve given up trying to figure out what the “american public” wants, but I’m pretty sure they will get what they deserve. Maybe disposable houses will be next. (-;
“Given the choice between bringing my cars to the shop 100 more times over the next 40 years and having to buy some new POS every few years, I’ll keep mine.”
That is a false choice. Buying a new car doesn’t mean you HAVE to trade it in every few years. My car is ten years old and I plan on keeping it for at least a few more years. The same goes for the next car I own. Why do you think that buying a new car means having to buy a new one “every few years”? What’s up with that?
As an example, if I have a choice of buying new clothes every year or wearing them once and throwing them away, I would choose to keep the ones I have. However, saying that those are my only two choices is totally ridiculous, especially when talking about cars!
“My car is ten years old and I plan on keeping it for at least a few more years. The same goes for the next car I own. Why do you think that buying a new car means having to buy a new one “every few years”? What’s up with that?”
I do not want to have to replace disposable cars, it doesn’t matter is it’s 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, or 15 years. I don’t buy a new house every 10 years either, I prefer to preserve what I have (especially if I prefer it over what’s currently available). Why are you planning on getting rid of your car?
So it’s really a choice between choosing to keep an old car forever or keeping a new car forever, but you change the terms of the choice why?..for emphasis or to mislead us into thinking you can’t keep a new car as long as you can keep an old car?
I am not planning on getting rid of my car. I am anticipating a change in my vehicular needs. I plan on driving cars less and riding motorcycles more. So I would like to have a tow vehicle, like an old police cruiser, that I can use to drop the motorcycle off at the shop. Although my Civic will probably be going strong at that time, it isn’t a tow vehicle.
I can keep my Civic indefinitely if I choose to maintain and repair it indefinitely and if my vehicicular needs stay the same. The idea that you can only do that with an old car is boooooooooooooogus!
Your preference is clear. Your reasoning is muddy.
"I can keep my Civic indefinitely if I choose to maintain and repair it indefinitely and if my vehicicular needs stay the same. The idea that you can only do that with an old car is boooooooooooooogus! "
I honestly don’t think it will be practical to preserve any current cars for the long term (not even high end cars that may actually have good parts support in the future). They are simply to complex to keep in “like new” condition indefinitely. They are also too tied to current computer technology that becomes obsolete very quickly and is difficult to support unless you are the original manufacturer. Can you imagine trying to work on a 30 year old computerized traction control system in 2040 after the original car’s manufacture has been bought and sold three times?
Also, good luck finding parts for your civic in 20 years.
It is important to buy from a manufacturer who is strong enough to stay in business and will commit to a parts supply. Mercedes, Volvo, and large companies like Toyota come to mind.
Recently a friend of wife was asked to sell a 1982 Toyota Cressida with low mileage for a neighbout who lost his eyesight and had to dispose of the car. She asked me to put a value on it and find out if Toyota would supply spares. I was told that parts would normally have to be ordered for a vehicle that age, but they would be available.
Toyota builds cars for 100 different countries, and the Cressida is really called the “Crown” in Asia, since they are not familiar with Shakespeare. These cars accumulate nearly one million miles as taxis and limos before the are scrapped and last 20-30 years.
The secret is buying a car with as few options as possible if you want long term economical performance. Chrysler products are the opposite of Toyotas; we don’t know if this company will even exist 3 years from now.
