I agree with Goldwing. Further…
The OP should ask everyone he/she knows if they have EVER owned a car that had a timing belt fail.
One part failing ruining an engine strikes me as poor design. Where is the Cartalk outrage?
Old one seemed just fine. Same with water pump, etc.
I bet the old timing belt looked just fine too, but you replaced it anyway. Sometimes age isn’t visible to the naked eye, at least not until it is too late. The timing belt kit for my car comes with a replacement tensioner.
IMHO, changing the timing belt but not changing the tensioner is like showering and putting on clean clothes each day but wearing the same dirty socks and underwear.
Goldwing, I mentioned it above, but I think it is worth mentioning again. The timing belt kit for my car (and probably your minivan) comes with a tensioner. I bet you saved a whole extra $15 by buying the belt by itself instead of the whole kit that comes with the tensioner. You didn’t save the $985 you implied you saved.
At least if your timing belt breaks prematurely, you will know why it happened without tearing apart the engine.
Many replies state that a timing belt will break with no warning. Is this really true or are people simply saying that from lack of technical knowledge?
Is is possible that a timing belt will provide indications that it will fail in the near future? Is it possible that frequent visual inspections such as every 1000 miles will somehow reveal imminent failure? Is it be possible that a belt flexed backwards would show cracks on the tooth side that a good belt will not? Will there be some fraying at the edges several hundred miles prior to failure? Could the hardness of the rubber be checked with some kind of meter? Are there dimensional changes from new that could be useful?
You just flat do not understand how a proper repair is supposed to be done; whether it’s a timing belt or any other facet of automobile repair.
As a DIYer you can shortcut, scrimp, and halfaxx all day long and when a problem surfaces the cause of that problem is in the mirror.
A professional is supposed to make sure that whatever part of the car he services does not screw up a week, month, or whatever later.
You’re also dead wrong about “realistic choices”. A customer who authorizes a halfaxx repair (and with it notated on the repair order) will do one of two things if that repair goes to hxxx in a handbasket the next week.
- They will come back with a severe case of amnesia and will conveniently have lost their copy advising them of a potential problem.
- They will never return to the shop but they will go to another shop and badmouth the original shop for “cutting corners”; with the second shop agreeing in total with them based on half a story.
This can be etched in stone.
If you were working for a shop you would likely be canned within 2 weeks because the shop owner is going to get real tired of seeing the tow truck come in with your comebacks (Mechanicspeak for you screwed up) on the hook.
For those who don’t think timing belts pop on a regular basis then go to the top of this page and do 2 things.
- Use the “search” function for timing belt poppings.
- Consider that the number of timing belt poppings mentioned on this forum are just a tiny fraction of the ones that do pop every single day of the year.
The v-6 engine calls for 3.5 hours of labor for the timing belt job. An additional .5 hour for the water pump replacement.
The 4 cyl calls for 3.2 hours labor. I don’t see where its going to cost $1000.
$400 -$450 should cover everything. Water pump, idler pulley,timing belt ,antifreeze and labor.
The first time I had my timing belt changed on my Civic (after 90,000 miles), I asked to see the old belt. When the service writer handed me the belt, it looked as new as a new one, even when I flexed it backwards. If I had tried to rely on a visual inspection, I would not have changed it at all, and it is possible it could have broken before showing visual signs of age.
When it comes to other belts, yes, when you look at one that broke, 99% of the time there will be visual signs of age and wear on parts of the belt that didn’t break, but with the timing belt protected under a cover, it operates under different conditions.
Because timing belts are made of composite materials, and not just rubber, it is impossible to tell if/when the ceramic or steel support webbing is weakening. IMHO, visual inspections of timing belts are pretty worthless. If you have an engine with a timing belt, the best thing you can do is follow the recommended replacement interval in your owner’s manual.
*** In addition to the tensioner and water pump, there are thousands of parts in my vehicle that have a chance of failure in the next 300,000 miles. Should I change all the parts that could ever break down right now? ***
There are a few parts that really do need to be replaced fairly regularly. Fewer than there used to be decades ago, but a few. Most of them like disk pads and rotors (or shoes and drums) have visible, tactile, or audible signs of wear, and only need to be replaced when you can see, feel, or hear them failing. (But you really ought to check them from time to time).
The timing belt is an exception. It’s in a difficult location, doesn’t have a wear indicator or audible “It’s time to replace me” indication, and doesn’t usually show any signs of wear prior to failing. Worse, on many engines, a timing belt failure can wreck the engine (and yes, now that you mention it, designing an engine that will self destruct if a part that is expected to wear, age and eventually fail fails is questionable engineering).
So, if you have an interference (i.e. suicidal) engine, periodic timing belt replacement is a really, really good idea. The replacement job is mostly labor and much the same labor is required in order to replace the water pump, so the water pump is often replaced at the same time because it is so much cheaper to replace it when you have forty or fifty parts that have to be removed to get to it laying on the garage floor anyway.
If you have a non-interference engine, don’t mind being stuck at a time and place of the car’s choosing, and a plan to handle a dead car when the belt breaks, then you can skip the periodic timing belt replacement. I’m assuming that the original poster would find getting stuck on I-95 half way between NYC and DC more than slightly inconvenient. So, that belt really should be replaced. For an elderly car with a non-interference engine that is used only for local trips and a driver that doesn’t mind walking a bit, waiting for the belt to break might well be an OK strategy.
*** The OP should ask everyone he/she knows if they have EVER owned a car that had a timing belt fail. ***
Why yes, I have. Actually, it was the water pump that failed. At 47K. It froze and took the timing belt with it when it went. And I know other folks who have had timing belts fail. I think many of the concerns expressed by others here are somewhat specious. Steering a relatively light modern car with the power steering inoperative is a bit difficult, but not all that hard – especially while the car is still rolling. It’s not like trying to steer a 1957 Dodge with no power steering – A task that would have taken two men and a boy. So I’m not as hard over about the urgency of timing belt replacement as many here are – SO LONG AS THE VEHICLE HAS A NON-INTERFERENCE ENGINE and the vehicle usage pattern will make a dead vehicle an inconvenience rather than a disaster.
I’ve seen 100k miles belts that looked perfectly fine and 30k miles belts that appeared to be iffy. There’s no set pattern and when in doubt (as in no paperwork to prove it was changed) it should always be assumed that it hasn’t.
The 20K miles belt in my oldest son’s old car looked like new when it broke. No tensioner or pump problem; just one of those fluke things.
A belt breaking on a non-interference engine is also more than an inconvenience. If that belt snaps while making a turn in front of someone, while pulling out from a stop sign in front a truck, changing lanes on the freeway, trying to get across a railroad crossing in front of a train, etc. a snapped belt can also be lethal.
What if there’s a medical emergency and one has to make a late night visit to the hospital and the belt snaps on the way there or it pops and leaves someone stranded on road late at night be themselves? A recent news story referred to a young lady whose Cavalier broke down on her (no idea if this was a timing belt issue or not) on a dark road and she was abducted and murdered. There’s a lot of scenarios that can make that timing belt replacement well worth it.
I don't know where everyone is getting the idea that you'll lose power steering due to the engine stalling. Not so. I've had a few cars stall out on me (one blown engine, one that ran out of gas). As long as you don't put the car in neutral, the engine and wheels are still connected via the transmission, so the wheels keep the engine going at the same RPM it was when it was running (and so the power steering pump keeps running as well.)
Anyway, replace the belt. These guys --^ have the money to burn. The theory behind replacing all these parts at once, is that the labor of going in there is so high that the other parts might as well be replaced preventatively, so that you're not spending labor for the belt, labor for the water pump later on, then labor for the tensioner later on. But, if you don't have the cash to pay for a pump and tensioner -- honestly, it's easy to tell if a tensioner or water pump is worn out. And on cars where they AREN'T replaced preventatively, belt tensioners and water pumps tend to go AT LEAST 175,000.. and unlike a belt that can look fine but be ready to break, they both give plenty of warning before they go too (tensioners get noisy, and water pumps have a weep hole that specifically leaks coolant when it's internally worn.. a worn water pump doesn't catastrophically fail, it starts pumping less coolant -- so if the car starts running hot it might be time to replace it, if it's not the radiator..) You'll want to find a "shade tree" mechanic for this. These guys --^ are right, too many people try to save bucks, then blame the mechanic if it backfires, so most mechanics will not do this.I don’t know where everyone is getting the idea that you’ll lose power steering due to the engine stalling. Not so. I’ve had a few cars stall out on me (one blown engine, one that ran out of gas). As long as you don’t put the car in neutral, the engine and wheels are still connected via the transmission, so the wheels keep the engine going at the same RPM it was when it was running (and so the power steering pump keeps running as well.)
Not on an automatic transmission…
transman
Ok, 4450,
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Yeah, I’m gonna ask mechanics about “timing belt poppings”. That’s like asking chiropractors about subluxations.
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I contend that with the high percentage of mechanics and pretend mechanics on this forum, the rate of “timing belt poppings” represented is over that in the population as a whole.
I still contend that a machine with one part that upon failure will deepsix the entire machine is bad design. After all, timing belts never break BEFORE their change-date, do they? Never. Ever. Bad design.
Two words: new job.
Two words: new job.
[sarcasm] I have to say, that is great automotive advice, especially in this economy while so many people are out of work. You don’t even know what the OP does for a living, or what her/his job skills are, but your thoughtlessly glib response is just what every person needs to solve all of her/his problems! I take my hat off to you. [/sarcasm]
Even with a manual, the momentum used to overcome the compression of the engine will slow the car in a hurry. I think hwertz is confusing the ability to still steer the car somewhat easily as it rolls down the road with the power steering still working when the engine is not running.
IMHO, visual inspections of timing belts are pretty worthless.
It would appear that the engineers agree with you as they have failed to spend the $5 that might be needed to provide an access port for examining the belt. On many cars, getting a belt cover off so the belt could be examined is a fairly major job
Go to an Auto Parts store and ask the price for a timing belt on your vehicle. Purchase it, and ask a mechanic, how much they will charge you to put it on. It doesn’t cost $1000.00. They would really be ripping you off.