Conventional 4wd isn’t a good choice on cement. But there are all wheel drive vehicles that are in that mode all the time, most cannot be switched to 2wd. They have some kind of differential arrangement so they can be driven on pavement w/no problem.
If you are set on 2wd, suggest you test drive a lighter-weight vehicle sporting an automatic transmission and rear wheel drive. Try it out on your hill, see how it works before you buy it. It isn’t power you want as much as low gearing, and an automatic tranny can provide that. Rear wheel drive b/c when you are going up a steep hill, the center of weight of the car moves more to over the rear wheels, and away from the front wheels. Powered rear wheel would be less likely to slide or skid going uphill. If you had front wheel drive you could try backing up the hill, but doing that all the time is pretty inconvenient.
My dad used to tell a story of when he had to take his Model T truck up a steep canyon road in Colorado, and the only way he could make it up that hill was to back up the whole way. But I think the reason wasn’t so much about traction but b/c of the way the fuel supply worked by a gravity feed, with the tank in the rear. So he had back up so to have the rear of the truck higher than the engine.
Hi @GeorgeSanJose, we definitely want AWD or 4WD but are trying to optimize and get the best vehicle for our situation, which is unique. Any suggestions on make/models?
@VolvoV70 is right. Make sure you tell the salesman exactly what the car will be used for and hve them demonstrate it Iwith you on your hill with you driving. They can then inform you during the demo how best to use any traction aids. I too would avoid a cvt which means the Subaru with the 6 and a gear auto transmission would be an option.
@dagosa - there is an intersection two blocks down, which is the first leg of my street (the continuation below @ about 28%) at that intersection I depressed the AWD button, which illuminates in the RAV4. I turned left and progressed up but was caught halfway due to pedestrians and two cars ahead and was forced to a full stop. That is when I lost traction and the tires spun.
I had also depressed the button at the bottom of my section and then began the climb. I don’t think I exceeded 25 mph in either case and, in any event, the button remained illuminated but you are right if I drove a block or two it would shut off.
I’m not sure though why it didn’t help me get going when I had to come to the full stop. Shouldn’t it have worked then? Or, perhaps the RAV4 didn’t have enough weight at the back? It was the rear wheels that spun.
Tonight a motorcycle came up to deliver our dinner, parked headfirst, and then couldn’t turn his 600 lb. bike around at the narrow top of the dead end because it was too steep and he didn’t have enough room. We had to get a tow truck for him and he suspended the bike and lifted it up, secured it to the bottom and carried the bike down. These incidents happen on a regular basis although this is the first time a motorcycle has been in trouble. It’s difficult to see from the picture but it’s VERY steep, narrow, and tilted at the top. A large car was in our driveway which is why he ended up at the tip top where it sort of levels out in a tiny square. He parked his bike there but then couldn’t back it out to turn around (too steep to control.)
Subarus have plenty of power to pull themselves up your hill. Plenty of torque, too. Modern cars are dramatically more powerful than almost car of a generation or more ago. Neither power nor torque is your problem is your problem, traction is, and in a manual transmission car, getting into first gear can be, though you sound like you can manage that. An automatic will have less problem. Many cars, especially Japanese ones, use continuously variable transmissions (a CVT) that behaves a bit differently than an older automatic with a torque converter. Either should be able to make it up the hill, given enough traction. The cars getting stuck because of confused stability control systems have a different problem.
If you still think a Subaru just doesn’t have enough power (they do) loop, you have a couple of choices. The six-cylinder engine is available in high-end Outbacks, but it is costly. The very popular WRX is based on the smaller Impreza, but adds a turbocharger for more oomph. That isn’t going to do much for crawling up a hill, but it’s nice for passing and getting on the freeway.
I think some people aren’t understanding your driveway. From what you’ve described it isn’t the sort you can smoothly turn into with some speed. We don’t have many of those in SF. Instead, it will be narrow and heading down a steepish slope to a garage dug out under the house. The transitions from steep streets to even steeper driveways at a right angle can be very weird. I see cars with a wheel off the ground making some of these turns. If it is as it sounds the OP will have to effectively stop, or at least slow to a crawl, before turning in. Nonetheless, cars really do have the ability to crawl up very steep slopes in their lowest gears, though it can feel otherwise. What I’ve seen is that people get spooked that their car is going to roll backwards out of control and don’t give the car enough gas to get going.
I’ve seen that road in Hawaii that the article someone linked to claims is the steepest street in the country at 45%. They only allow 4WD vehicles on that, and there are even a company or two running Jeep tours that go down there. At the top of the hill there are huge warning signs, an overlook and place to turn around, and often a guard to prevent unsuitable vehicles from trying. Calling it a street is silly as it is a narrow rural road into a steep-walled valley running down to the ocean. There was once a tiny village down there but now there are just some traditional taro patches tended by nearby residents, so there are only a handful of people who have any business using the road. Gorgeous scenery on that side of the Big Island, very rainy and lush, much like the north shore of Kauai.
Here’s a thought if you’re driving a front wheel drive based vehicle. If there’s room to play with, try to crank the steering all the way to the lock before attempting to start. While you are still looking at a 34% grade, the front tires won’t be trying to climb such a grade. Just be sure to let the wheel unwind as it gets going
@MarkM - exactly! Our driveway is a short, sharp 90 degree angle to the hill. The driveway itself tilts crazily sideways along with the grade so driver’s side doors swing violently open and passengers struggle mightily to even open the door to get out. The garage is not a basement level but instead is street level/walkout and flat as a pancake inside, so yes, we absolutely have to slow down and turn in with some care. Backing out and up is a nightmare to turn around. I advise people to back all the way down but even that scares the bejesus out of most people. Many people find their hands and legs shaking uncontrollably after coming up here - it’s terrifying.
We rescued a stranger just tonight and paid $80 for a tow truck to carry his motorcycle down because he couldn’t turn his 600 lb bike around at the top - it was too narrow where he parked and too steep to maneuver without losing control of the bike before he could even sit on it. This was a grown man in his 30s - super embarrassed too. We just took care of the bill and invited him in for an hour while he waited. It’s crazy.
A big motorcycle would be hard to manage in those circumstances. At least you’re lucky enough to have your garage at ground level. The steep driveways sloping down coming off hills are even worse. Especially the super narrow ones. I live in the Castro and there are some steepish streets between here and Noe Valley that have perpendicular parking. I hate being in one of those spaces wrestling with the door trying to keep it from flying open into the next car, or trying to push it uphill and keeping it from closing on my ankles. And those are only sort of steep streets, not the sort where the sidewalk is a set of stairs. You should probably have a ski lift or escalator on your street. I’ve never noticed it, but don’t get down that way often except flying by on 280.
@BlackMountainDreamer Trying out a similar model with a salesman present is the only way to be sure. For sure, a RAV 4 cylinder has enough power and is beter balanced. A compact Subaru Imprezza is quite low to the ground and very highly regarded. If they can climb a 30 plus degree grade dirt road , which they can, they should be able to do concrete.
You are right. Few have your hills that steep that are as long as in SF, but, there are many elsewhere that have to negotiate just as steep inclines for shorter distances and have to start out on them. This is true around lakes where drives are very steep. We all do it around here where I live on a lake. You may find too, that softer performance tires on concrete.
I hear you. The road to my shore has areas greater then 20 degrees of tilt which is a grade of 36 plus degrees. It’s not unusual and we around here do it all the time. My neighbors 200 foot hot top drive is over that in spots and he drives daily with an AWD Volvo CC. Two wheel drive deliver trucks lock their rear differential and drive on out with ease. I know we all get ga ga about the hills of SF but even in areas of other states on private roads and drives everywhere, there are grades this and greater. Careful planning, occasional use and digging up the road or lots of spinning get 2 wd out of these areas. AWD and 4 wd do it easily on a regular basis. You are right @VolvoV70. I am beginning to see that the solution may just be a better set of tires ( softer) and any basic AWD car.
I took a good friend to San Francisco last year and although I had told her that some sidewalks were stairways she apparently didn’t grasp what I was telling her. When we drove up one of those steep streets she suddenly realized it wasn’t just an occasional step up as she had imagined. And San Francisco is more beautiful today than it was 40 years ago. And if only I could afford a home at Monterey.
Yesterday, we spent the whole day out looking at cars, some well above our original budget, but we are committed to getting this right. The first time.
Of the following, which would be the best/safest/surest bet: Land Rover Discovery Sport HSE, Jeep Renegade Trailhawk, VW Tiguan w/AWD, Subaru Forester or Outback (base engine or more power?) Volvo V60 AWD? A used BMW X1 AWD?
Any others?
If we chose one of the above two 4WD, which terrain modes (traction enhancers) might we use: grass/gravel, mud, rock, sand? Obviously, we have concrete but might one of these modes give us the traction surety we need? The road is tilted and lumpy at points but all lightly brushed concrete - no potholes.
I love Subaru but am really concerned about the wimpy engine and torque (compared to the others.)
If this was your place and you had a budget for a new family vehicle up to (now-yikes!) $45K what would it be?
@VolvoV70 - I don’t disagree with anything said or suggested but there is some conflicting advice in the thread. Which tires would give the best traction on an AWD up here? I looked into performance summer tires as it is usually dry and above 50 degrees here but would like suggestions for a more grippy ride. Not sure why you’re offended by me. I appreciate everyone’s feedback. It’s very interesting and helpful.
This afternoon while raking by my road down to the shore, I checked the the incline of the road again. It was more then 20 degrees of tilt which is greater then 36% grade in several areas. Though I normally move items to the shore with my tractor, I have on dozens of occasions used my wife’s RAV or my truck. There was never a problem in AWD and I never used the lock. I really think we are over thinking this. Try out These basic small SUVS on your hill. Never buy anything you don’t actually try out on the roads you normally travel. You can’t conjecture about the competence of a Subaru engine without actually driving one up and down your street.
If it’s not too invasive of your privacy, I’d LOVE to see a picture of your driveway and the street in question. A picture is worth 978 words or so, after all…
IIRC, only the BMW and the Subaru drive all 4 wheels all the time. The others are automatic part time four wheel drive.
For 45k, I would buy me an Imprezza STI. 300 horses ought to be enough. Besides, conquering the hill is half the battle here. I wouldn’t want to be holding a thick metal door which is stuffed with sound insulation against gravity when the car is parked at an angle, nor do I want to drive up and down the street in San Francisco looking for a place to park a mid size car