This discussion reminds me of the old Laurel and Hardy movie “The Music Box’” where they had to move that piano up a godawful steep and long set of steps.
Help! House on the 3rd steepest city street in the COUNTRY - 34% grade - AWD? hp.? performance tires
My sister used to live on the street where Laurel and Hardy filmed that scene. The stairs were quite a climb, but the street wasn’t too bad. I live in San Francisco where steep streets aren’t rare, but 34% is extreme. Even on somewat lesser hills it can feel like you are falling over backwards, even if it isn’t really going to happen. Delivery people here have to deal with a lot of problems. Even if the building isn’t on a steep hill there are usually a bunch of stairs to negotiate, sometimes both narrow and steep in Victorians. We have to be careful we don’t buy anything too big to get up to our flat. Our place isn’t special, but it is still a fourth floor walkup.
As for the OP. Good luck on this. A Subaru seems like a good idea. No one has more experience making modern AWD vehicles. I would figure put how to turn off the stability control, as that seems to be a recurring problem. I suspect most other cars could creep up there with care, but a car that did it easily (like a Subaru) would be better. Stay away from Land Rover in any case. Despite their tough reputation, the reliability is very poor and repairs and maintenance are expensive. The Land Rover model that their reputation was built on hasn’t even been sold in the US for decades.
I was driving my grad school roommate around San Francisco during winter break. It was cold, raining and we were heading up a hill like that with 5 stop signs. We made it to the top my 105hp xB with not a hint of tire slip or clutch smoke. If my 5 year stick shift experience got me up there, I think the op should do a lot better.
I’m thinking that the high power automatic mentioned tried to shift to second half way up. When the car figures that second gear would not work, it slams back to first(many automatics, e.g. rav4 v6 with a lepelltier 6 spd, shift between first and second by engaging the second gear clutch and the first gear one way clutch let’s go; when the second gear clutch disengages, the first gear one way clutch kicks in almost immediately) and that’s when the tires break loose. That’s when the sensors detect something that it does not like and the car stops. Slow and steady reversing up hill should do the trick
With hills like that, I rather go through clutches than automatic transmissions, which you know can cost you thousands. When one clutch fails, I can put in an aftermarket clutch that would be a little more expensive but last longer than the factory unit. If you don’t want to do the clutching yourself, the smart fortwo is a rear engined, rwd will do the clutching for you.
It’s not a question of making a steep hill once in a while, it’s a question of doing it every day. Only a heavier duty vehicle can put up with this abuse. The Rover was in jest. Their repair history is poor. It’s also not a question of getting a run for the hill as on occasion, the vehicle has to stop and restart midway. A v6 AWD Rav has problems with traction then a fwd or rwd car will also. I will ask though…@BlackMoutainDreamer Did you use the locking feature to start off in the RAV ? The V6 RAV is plenty powerful enough. As far as transmissions are concerned, any trans that works best for towing, works better for hills. The auto if service regularly, will work better then any manual and not give you problems. Going through clutches is not cheap and it’s dangerous once they start slipping. The v6 RAV auto in AWD can be rated to tow over 3500 lbs. Some of us live on steep inclines and have to deal with this every day. Autos work better. AWD works better if used properlly used.
I doubt someone who has 30 years experience and have to drive up that hill everyday would be careless enough to smoke a clutch on a such a hill. As i mentioned before, there are after market clutches that would last longer than the original. There’s no “locking feature” in cars 50 years ago when the road was built and there’s no need to have a car with that feature now nor in the future. All it really takes to climb a hill like that is competent driving skill.
I too would get the Subaru Imprezza if I live on the hill like that. But as I recall, the torsen is only available with the three pedals version. The CVT powers all wheel all the time, but the center locking differential is controlled electronically when there’s wheel slip. I have a sense that the torsen would react slightly faster than the electronic center diff
I would always get a running start at the hill if you can. Stopping midway up a grade like that and resuming is really rough on drivetrain components. I think you just need to get a feel for what kind of approach to the hill works best to smoothly arrive at your home. If you get an AWD, I’d consider one with a viscous coupling between the front and rear and not a traditional transfer case that engages and disengages–I think the reliability would be better. I would also consider something with a low center of gravity if you can, as things are less likely to end badly if you somehow lose traction and begin to slide back down that hill and end up sideways for whatever reason. If your road or driveway ever gets slick, I would not even consider a 2WD vehicle, though there will likely be times even a 4WD or AWD vehicle wouldn’t be able to manage a grade like that if it is icy or rainy. Also, I would get the grippiest tires you can find, even if the wear rating is somewhat less than you would like. Certain Pirelli tires are known to be made of a softer, stickier rubber compound and may help with traction. Finally, if you drive an automatic, I would put it in a lower gear or use the ‘autostick’ feature that many cars have to discourage the transmission from upshifting in mid stream.
@chunkyazian 50 years ago there weren’t AWD cars running around in great numbers. 
The locking feature i refer to only applies to them. The RAV is a converted fwd while the Subaru has rwd bias built in which is superior on hills. The locking feature found on Toyota models ( and others) helps to equalize the performance when starting off. . Otherwise, the RAV would just be a fwd car with a heavy six until, the front wheels spun like crazy and rears just sat there without enough torque.
It is difficult to describe what AWD does to make life easier to those who don’t drive them. The " all it takes is skill" approach and just buy a manual eliminates 90 % of the drivers. WTH buys manual transmissions much anymore ? I have not heard if OP ever used the “lock provision” which is expressly made to start the car in conditions described. It gives the vehicle a truck based system till you start then reverts back to slip and go AWD. Subaru has less need being a rwd bias system to begin with.
Dagosa, you’re right, there’s no awd 50 years ago and people probably made it up that hill just fine.
The proper skill I was alluding to was throttle skill. When I was driving up hills like those in San Francisco, I don’t recall needing full throttle when in first gear. Slow and steady in first gear gets the car up hill. Besides, all the other forward gears were useless and I didn’t bother upshifting.
Being overaggressive with the throttle would let the transmission to think it can shift to second when it shouldn’t.
I think any modern car runs out of grip before it runs out of throttle on that hill. I think OP is simply demonstrating the idiocy of traction control.
@chunkyazian Exactly. It seems people need all this hill starting anti role back just to start an auto on a hill let alone a manual. Good grief. When I discovered our vehicles with autos had it I just asked…Why ? Is there something I am missing ? I always drove a manual until 7 years ago when I had my first shoulder surgery. So autos now have a place in my heart. Maybe it’s the medical profession that is promoting them. ( autos) btw, reading OP’s original comment, they don’t make it up “just fine”.
@meanjoe75fan I can only tell you this. We can climb a hill covered with shear ice people can’t walk up obviously in 4 wd but with traction control. Up until my cars and trucks had it, we had to sand the entire half mile hill from pails while we wore ice grippers, just to get out to go to work. 4 wd is really only two wheel drive, one front and one rear with out traction control on cars not equipped for off road. Traction control is awesome when used correctly.
When the RAV4 lost traction I had locked into AWD, as shown, prior to beginning the ascent. I got caught halfway due to pedestrians at the top and had to come to a full stop. It is naive to expect that one won’t be caught halfway at any given time routinely given the size and population of this city. It’s obviously not a rural setting where one can adjust the drive by controlling the situation.
This street tops out at 34%. I promise you that is far and away a whole other level than SF’s other “steep” streets which have been recorded at 30-31%.
When I ascend those hills in my 114hp manual I don’t even have to use the brake most times even in traffic. I alternate/rock lightly between the clutch and accelerator and move forward in traffic only rarely having to come to a full stop or apply the brake. I descend in 1st and gently tap the brake every now and then. I’ve never blown or replaced a clutch in my life and my brakes have always worn well, never had issues. I hit black ice and slush suddenly on Highway 50 in Utah a few years ago and was able to control the skid and avoid an 8 ft. ditch by popping the clutch and whipping the wheel towards the ditch - in the direction of the slide. We ended up safely on the other side of the highway facing the other direction and I slammed my fists on the wheel jubilant over my driving skill. Lol I’ll never forget that moment all my life. There wasn’t any sign of civilization in any direction to the horizon and no cell service. I remember looking into my son’s clear blue eyes and the wasteland to the horizon, seeing the depth of the ditch and in an instant I knew exactly what to do. I was high on it for hours. That was in a not-at-all agile Nissan Cube - a car that most people would have flipped in that situation.
BlackMountainDreamer – If you are so much better than most people why are you even asking for advice ?
I looked at Subarus last week but they have hardly any horse power. If this was a dirt road it would be easy to chose a vehicle but it’s not. There is an entrance to a park exactly half way up that stretch and people are always up there with their dogs and, often, kids. Also, the driveway is tight and tilted. At some point a full stop is inevitable just to maneuver. So whatever vehicle I get has to be able to start from that position. Most cars cannot start cold from a 34% grade.
@dagosa: Every car I have had the misfortune of driving with traction control was lousy in the snow unless/until you disabled the TC. Symptoms were as OP described: the car would simply depower itself and come to a stop.
OP should read owners manual and disable TC and see where she stands.
@meanjoe75fan - I only rented the RAV4 for a month. I am looking for a permanent solution to this problem as in a brand new car, specifically for the hill. Everything else about the car is secondary. That being said, it needs to be 182" tops - anything bigger isn’t practical in the city. Also want it to be a functional family car.
@Volvov70 - certainly not my intent to come off that way. Simply, many have questioned technique, etc. I am a competent experienced driver, that’s all. I may as well have been a new driver based on some comments, but I am not. I’ve lived in the mountains and in upstate NY so I’ve got experience with a variety of terrains/weather, etc.
@meanjoe75fan that is exactly how you are suppose to drive an AWD car or a two wheel drive car in deeper snow. If it’s hard pack and slippery and you are traveling at higher speed, you run with the track on. The track off button actually keeps the traction control engaged. It does shut off the engine cut off so you have power. The brakes continue apply pressure to the spinning wheel to maintain traction. The reason it shuts itself off at higher speeds, is that it would increase wear on brakes. In AWD, you now have limited slip on both wheels. Your experience with track in 2 wd should not be interpreted to be the same as that with AWD. You are not disabling all the features of traction control when you press the off button…only the engine cut off on most cars. AWD cars have their own protocols when you press this button. We cannot confuse two wheel drive with AWD functions. I have owned an AWD RAV and we now own an AWD Venza and 4 wd Tacoma. We have been living with these features for more then ten years on these vehicals.
@BlackMountainDreamer I still don’t understand. "Prior to the ascent " is the wrong time to press this button. It disengaged itself once you moved. The AWD RAV is always engaged. If you press the lock, all you do is lock in the bias to the rear which helps get you starteD. You only use this button to start you off. Once moving, it automatically disengages at 25 mph or lower. Then when you then stop, you have to reengage it. The car is always in AWD. The button just enhances it for starting off. Put it in too early then driving would then shut it off. Pressing the TC off helps but the lock does that automatically too.
Summary…People mistakenly think the button puts it into AWD. It is always in AWD ! Shutting off the TC also helps tremendously too but that happens too with the lock button. Once you start moving, it disengages and you reeengage it when stopped again.
The Subaru H6 has plenty of power. But, it also cost lots of money. Did you try out a 4 cylinder Subaru at you road or just drive it around elsewhere. There are a bunch of good AWD compact SUVs including the RAV 4 cylinder. But you need to try it out on your road.
“Most cars can’t stop cold from a 34 degree grade” forgive me, but I have to disagree. I live on the side of a mountain on private roads, many of which are over 30 degrees. All AWD vehicles can start on these roads. My road to the shore has two areas greater then 30 degrees. I can stop and start with my wife’s Venza if I turn the TC off. 34 degrees IS very steep for a public road, but compared to many private ways in the mountains, they are just as bad. Not only are some over thirty degrees, they are unpaved. I showed you the video of the Rover just to show what a 4 wd vehicle will do. It’s all about traction. It isn’t about power alone as your experience with the RAV will attest to.
Why not just tell the salesman and general manager that you need to test drive to your home before you even consider a purchase. Also tell them they are welcome to drive you in one of their demonstrators to show the vehicle will do what you want.